A Chasidus without a present Rebbe

@83, “just to point out chassidus is unlimited. there are over 300 seforim of sifrai chabad. there are seforim of other chassidus too. (b”h Hashem gave me a good head, and i learned alot)”

There are 10,000s of other chasidisher seforim yet you never looked into any of them, talk about narrow mindness.

Besides anyone who condones the destruction of a bais medrash cannot be taken seriously.

@mods the post including the sources for arso hasn’t been posted.

Those *sources. That should make more sense. I posted them all in a post. Ask the mods where it’s gone

Ah shame. Ok I had other points in there too. In short:

1) Rambam must be understandable and applicable as We are to use his halachic criteria for defining candidates for Moshiach. Regarding Melech- if he’s just starting off the process in golus and we’re not even sure he’sa candidate- he wouldn’t be a king anointed by Sanhedrin. The deals pretty done by then. The meaning is Rabbanim who are called kings- מאן מלכי רבנן. The emphasis on king is that he has a commanding kinglike presence/ leadership.

2) if someone has traceable yichus, they fulfill the criteria. If you are waiting for Sanhedrin, you make this criterion irrelevant and obsolete.

3) enjoy the sources. Regarding yachuf- here’s sources for future reference:

כ״ה בכ״מ בש״ס שיכוף הוא בדברים – ראה כתובות נג, א וברש״י. שם עז, א. תוס׳ כתובות מט, ב. תוס׳ ב״ב ח, ב. תוס׳ חולין קי, ב. רדב״ז נדרים יג,ז. תויויו״ט אבות ג, יד. הובא בלקו״ש כו ע׳ 140. ועד״ז הוא כה ע׳ 458. וראה לקו״ש לה ע׳ 97.
ובנדו״ד – שיחת דברים תשט״ו. אחש״פ תש״כ. שיחות קודש תשל״ה א ע׳ 108. וכ״כ בפרקי תשובה וגאולה זאהן בשם הגרמ״פ בנדו״ד. וכ״כ הגרח״ק אשיחה שטילגליץ ב ע׳ רצט.
יש

Thanks mods. I guess I didn’t go through before

@mods. Thanks. Posted again

Gutte voch from my locality.

Arso, didn’t add a crucial point to number one: the example the Rambam gives as a candidate to be Moshiach was Ben koziba. He wasn’ta king anointed etc, but rather people gathered around him and overtired his instructions.

Gadolhadofi- sure, I believe it, 30 years later (sorry I thought it was clear.) sometimes it takes 40 years for people to understand things (just learned any that in reference to the geula in this weeks Dvar Malchus, BH, I’m not 40 yet but I’m past that part.

Ps the Rashi in Daniel says Moshiach will be concealed over 40 years after his initial revelation

To CS

“The Rashi in Daniel says that Moshiach will be concealed over forty years after his initial revelation.” When did the Rebbe have his initial revelation as Moshiach

> Also, after the stroke, the Rebbe encouraged yechi with the little time we had with him

Did you see this personally? At that time – after the stroke – a choshuve local Rav publicly said that he called Rebbe’s secretariate and asked them how he can be helpful, and they asked him to state publicly that all the meshugas is NOT coming from them – and that is what he told us.

My humble opinion is that considering the difficult situation in Israel and the fact that we have 613 Biblical commandments and many Rabbinical commandments, we should concentrate on doing what we know clearly are our responsibilities.

All this nahrishkeit whether the Rebbe is (or was) Moshiach is totally inconsequential.

Let’s spend our time constructively and productively!!

Qwerty:
The Rebbe had his initial revelation as Moshiach in 5751. There are many sources for this, you can ask your rabbi to go through with you inside if you’re actually interested.

“You just said that you spend your time educating frum people who are Jewishly uneducated. By definition those pe.ople aren’t frum.”

If you’ll reread my post, I work with not yet frum and the frum people who help me can use more education in the infinite value of a yid, regardless of level of observance, the infinite value of a Mitzvah etc. and I do my best to share. Just reread the post. All there.

AAQ: The Rebbe nodded his head etc to yechi and yes I saw it although I wasn’t born then, because it’s on video. The Rebbe also answered life and Death questions among others in the same time period. He couldn’t speak because of the stroke. My mother got a bracha for my birth to be smooth and quick then (was much quicker than usual). However, even before the stroke, The Rebbe accepted Nachshons public recital of yechi with a smile, and the nshei women’s tambourine with yechi (picture of that too.)

Arso,
1) no one said that bracha, and see what I said about bar kochba

2) that’s not in the Rambam s criteria of defining bchezkas Moshiach

3) did you look up all the sources?

AAQ:

“ Did you see this personally? At that time – after the stroke – a choshuve local Rav publicly said that he called Rebbe’s secretariate and asked them how he can be helpful, and they asked him to state publicly that all the meshugas is NOT coming from them – and that is what he told us.”

Yeah this is exactly the issue which we need to overcome to move forward (and ties back to what happened to 770.) The Rebbe instructed the Chassidim to work in a manner of אורות דתוהו בכלים דתיקון and it seemed that after Gimmel Tammuz (and I guess it started before) there became two groups: people were either running with yellow flags and not bothering to see how others received it (אורות דתהו) or only caring to
look normal, and therefore deny the whole Rebbe Moshiach business (כלים דתיקון).

At first it was fiery conflict unfortunately but understandably. My generation couldn’t care for the conflict, but the elder generation is in charge of 770, and that’s why there’sa vacuum of leadership, because 770 belongs to both ultimately so no one is really in charge.

If you look up L”S 11, p11, in the footnotes, The Rebbe says that when there will be achdus in the area of speaking about Moshiach, that will draw down Moshiach’s revelation. Peace in the world is dependent on peace within yidden. Peace doesn’t mean you all think the same but rather it’s like the idea of Echad (which holds space for yichuda Ilaah- Hashem’s perspective of no other existence at all, and Yichuda Tataah- our subjugation of our sense of existence to Hashem- that’s my edit).

So really the Hamas tunnels and 770 tunnels may very well be connected… peace and achdus is the call of the hour

I forgot to mention last week that according to the Rambam in Peirush Hamishnayos, anyone who says that Mashiach can be descended from David through anyone other than Shlomo Hamelech is kofer Bashem!

פירוש המשנה לרמב”ם מסכת סנהדרין פרק י משנה א
והיסוד השנים עשר ימות המשיח, והוא להאמין ולאמת שיבא… ומכלל היסוד הזה שאין מלך לישראל אלא מדוד ומזרע שלמה דוקא. וכל החולק בענין המשפחה הזו הרי זה כפר בה’ ובדברי נביאיו.

The alleged yichus of the Lubavicher rebbe reaches to David Hamelech through the Nesi’im of Eretz Yisroel, and they were not through Shlomo. See Kesubos 62b.

When I mentioned this in person to a Lubavicher many years ago, his reply was that we pasken only like the Rambam in Yad Hachozokah, not like Peirush Hamishnayos.

Aside from the fact that that is a very poor excuse for being on the level of kofer Bashem c”v, in this thread that reply is worth nothing at all. After all, if we can quote Rabbeinu Bachya, and Rashi to Doniel et al as conclusive, we can certainly quote the Rambam who is the same person who gave us all the criteria Lubavichers have been misinterpreting for decades. (Btw is there any Rishon who argues with this statement of the Rambam?)

So, is there anyone out there – Lubavicher or otherwise – who would willingly allow themselves to be considered a kofer Bashem uvedivrei neviov just because they want to follow a certain agenda?!

חכמים הזהרו בדבריכם

To CS
So the Rebbe’s initial revelation was in 5751. Funny, that no real Jew knows about it. Must have been a private party. But let’s get “serious.” In seven yrars 40 years will have passed. Will you give up your belief at that time or willyou find some other Chazal to distort?

CS,

“The Satan got directly involved by the chet etz hadaas, and by Matan Torah.”

So the rest of us are essentially worshiping a golden calf since we don’t accept the Rebbe, zt”l, who was niftar 30 years ago, as mashiach?

How fitting, since Klal Yisrael views those who believe so to be idol worshipers.

Also, what is the kabalistic significance that 770 was allegedly an illegal abortion clinic before being purchased by chabad?

To CS

So you’re saying that the Rebbe has been functioning as Moshiach for the last 33 years. The first three years he was alive and the last 30 as a dead Moshiach. So this will go on for another 7 years at which point he will be revealed as Moshiach for all the world. What will you say if year 40 comes and goes and he”s still interred?

Let me give you an example. A celebrated older shlucha was invited to speak with us. One of the things she mentioned was how she was lucky to be by the Rebbe for Tishrei every year. In fact, she says, when we were by the Rebbe by Tishrei, we felt so uplifted that we didn’t even feel we needed Moshiach, because this is how it’ll be, but we’ll have to share the Rebbe with everyone.

I was shocked, because growing up on the Rebbes sichos, I couldn’t help but think, who cares if you were uplifted? Don’t all other yidden deserve to be similarly uplifted? And what about the fact that the Gilui Elokus when Moshiach comes will be much much greater than we could ever imagine because we’ll be able to see Hashem, and there will no longer be any concealments?? And what of the pain of the Shechina?

Honestly, if I had ever had such a feeling, I would’ve been embarrassed from my yetzer hara to say it out loud, it would reflect poorly on me as a chossid. But she said it and didn’t seem to have any issue.

I think this is because as I said, people were enthralled by the Rebbes presence whereas today were enthralled by his essence (teachings, direction etc) . She may have been on shlichus already when the Rebbe really pushed the urgency of Moshiach and geula, and so she seemed to have missed some of it that seemed so obvious to little me.

In fact, the difference was so stark that I was embarrassed to even ask her how she could say such a thing, so I didn’t. Of course she is an outstanding role model in many other areas

CS: “1) no one said that bracha, and see what I said about bar kochba”

You claim that the Lubavicher rebbe fits the Rambam’s criteria, one of which is Mashiach will be a king. So why didn’t anyone – not even the greatest of chassidim – recite the beracha one recites when seeing a king? The obvious, and only, answer is that they didn’t consider him a king, and for a very simple reason… he wasn’t.

Btw I believe that the expression מאן מלכי רבנן does not appear anywhere in Chazal. It is a paraphrasing of something said by an Amora in Gittin 62a, and according to that all Rabbonon are included. Nonetheless we do not find anyone, including the Amora who made the statement, reciting the beracha because even he did not mean that they had the actual status of kings. Proof being that Chazal say that a Rav can be mochel on has kavod but a king cannot. So clearly it is allegorical (that may be the wrong word, but you probably know what I mean).

CS: “the example the Rambam gives as a candidate to be Moshiach was Ben koziba. He wasn’t a king anointed etc, but rather people gathered around him and overtired his instructions”

He may or may not have been anointed, I don’t know, but R Akiva certainly considered him a king because he called him MELECH Hamashiach.
And as far “overtired” is concerned, I think that adjective may apply to a number of people who read this thread 🙂

CS: “2) that’s not in the Rambam s criteria of defining bchezkas Moshiach”

What are you referring to?

CS: “3) did you look up all the sources?”

I looked up ALL the sources you gave from Chazal. I did not look up any sources from the Lubavicher rebbe because I already know that he was the leader of the arrows first system of showing he is Mashiach.
I have said it before, but “Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770” is so childish that it’s cringeworthy.
Did you know – this is something I heard 50 years ago – that Chamor Bli Daas not only has the initials Chabad but that it too has the gematria of 770? If you want to prove things from childish gematriyos then be my guest.

answer to all your questions on chabad: sing a nigun from the rebbe!

In the early years of his leadership, the founder of Chabad Chassidism, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, would expound his teachings in the form of short homiletic sayings. It was only in later years (particularly after his liberation from imprisonment in Petersburg in 1798) that he began delivering the lengthy, intellectually profound discourses which characterize the “Chabad” system of Chassidic thought.

One of these early short discourses was based on the Talmudic passage, “All bearers of collars go out with a collar and are drawn by a collar” (Shabbat 51b). The Talmud is discussing the laws of Shabbat, on which it is forbidden for a Jew to allow his animal to carry anything out from a private domain to a public domain; however, it is permitted to allow one’s animal to go out with its collar around its neck, and even to draw it along by means of its collar. But the Hebrew word the Talmud uses for “collar,” shir, also means “song.” Thus Rabbi Schneur Zalman interpreted the Talmud’s words to say that, “The masters of song — the souls and the angels — go out in song and are drawn by song. Their ‘going out’ in yearning for G‑d, and their drawing back into their own existence in order to fulfill the purpose of their creation, are by means of song and melody.”

This was in the early years of the Chassidic movement, when the opposition to Chassidism by many mainstream rabbis and scholars was still quite strong. This latest teaching by Rabbi Schneur Zalman, which quickly spread among his followers throughout White Russia and Lithuania, elicited a strong reaction from his opponents, who complained that the Chassidim have, yet again, employed homiletic wordplay and outright distortion of the holy Torah to support innovations to Jewish tradition. The Talmud, said they, is talking about collars worn by animals, not about the singing of souls and angels! No genuine Torah scholar could endorse, much less propagate, such an “interpretation.”

Rabbi Schneur Zalman’s words caused a particular uproar in the city of Shklov. Shklov was a town full of Torah scholars and a bastion of opposition to Chassidism. There were Chassidim in Shklov, but they were a small and much persecuted minority, and this latest controversy inflamed the ardor of their detractors. While the Chassidim of Shklov did not doubt the truth of their Rebbe’s words, they were hard-pressed to defend them in the face of the outrage and ridicule this latest saying had evoked.

A while later, Rabbi Schneur Zalman passed through Shklov on one of his journeys. Among those who visited the Rebbe at his lodgings were many of the town’s greatest scholars, who presented to him the questions and difficulties they had accumulated in the course of their studies. For even the Rebbe’s most vehement opponents acknowledged his genius and greatness in Torah. The Rebbe listened attentively to all the questions put to him but did not reply to any of them. However, when the scholars of Shklov invited him to lecture in the central study hall, the Rebbe accepted the invitation.

When Rabbi Schneur Zalman ascended the podium at the central study hall of Shklov, the large room was filled to overflowing. Virtually all the town’s scholars were there. Some had come to hear the Rebbe speak, but most were there for what was to follow the lecture, when the town’s scholars would have the opportunity to present their questions to the visiting lecturer. All had heard of Rabbi Schneur Zalman’s strange behavior earlier that day, when all the questions put to him were met with silence. Many hoped to humiliate the Chassidic leader by publicly demonstrating his inability to answer their questions. In the background, of course, loomed the recent controversy over the Rebbe’s unconventional interpretation of the Talmudic passage about animals’ collars on Shabbat.

Rabbi Schneur Zalman began to speak. “All those of shir,” he quoted, “go out with shir and are drawn by shir.” “The masters of song,” explained the Rebbe, “the souls and the angels, all go out in song and are drawn by song. Their yearning for G‑d, and their drawing back to fulfill the purpose of their creation, are by means of song and melody.” And then the Rebbe began to sing.

The room fell utterly silent. All were caught in the thrall of the melody, a melody of yearning and resolve, of ascent and retreat. As the Rebbe sang, every man in the room felt himself transported from the crowded hall to the innermost recesses of his own mind, where a man is alone with the confusion of his thoughts, alone with his questions and doubts. Only the confusion was gradually being dispelled, the doubts resolved. By the time the Rebbe finished singing, all the questions in the room had been answered.

Among those present in the Shklov study hall that day was one of the town’s foremost prodigies, Rabbi Yosef Kolbo. Many years later, Rabbi Yosef related his experience to the Chassid, Reb Avraham Sheines. “I came to the study hall that day with four extremely difficult questions — questions I had put forth to the leading scholars of Vilna and Slutzk, to no avail. When the Rebbe began to sing, the knots in my mind began to unravel, the concepts began to crystallize and fall into place. One by one, my questions fell away. When the Rebbe finished singing, everything was clear. I felt like a newly-born child beholding the world for the very first time.

“That was also the day I became a Chassid,” concluded Rabbi Yosef.

sechel83,

“answer to all your questions on chabad: sing a nigun from the rebbe!”

Oh wow, now I believe that the Rebbe, zt”l, who was niftar 30 years ago, is definitely mashiach!

Not.

Such lunacy is why Klal Yisrael considers chabad to be a divergent religion.

CS: “Here’s it says in Hayom Yom introduction (and Beis HaRav
is well known)
…

The Rebbe is Ben achar Ben to the Maharal, who was known as having descended from Malchus Beis Dovid.”

You really don’t get it, do you? I, and at least a few others on this thread, don’t accept anything the Lubavicher rebbe says that could lead to a claim that he himself is Mashiach or a descendent of David Hamelech, because we believe he is just pushing an agenda.

So PLEASE, if you want to bring proofs about anything at all, use only other non-Lubavich sources, and especially nothing from the last Lubavicher rebbe!

Re the Maharal’s alleged yichus to David Hamelech (I say alleged because there seems to be a disagreement about this. Not that it makes any difference to us because the Maharal was as great as he was regardless of his yichus.), it is through Rashi WHO HAD NO SONS. So it is most definitely NOT ben achar ben to David Hamelech.

Furthermore, the Tzemach Tzedek, who was the Lubavicher rebbe’s paternal ancestor, was not ben achar ben of the Baal Hatanya, and his paternal line is unknown (other than the claim that he was a descendant of the Metzudos). So how on earth do you know that the Lubavicher rebbe was ben achar ben from the Maharal? Oh, I know. He said so himself.

To the group

CS has clarified the Chabad position. In 1991 a delegation of Lubavichers approached the Rebbe and asked him to accept the Meashichas. He smiled which indicated his assent. At that point he became Moshiach and in seven years he’ll come back to life to declare himself Moshiach for all the Jews.

To the group

Thanks to CS I now understand the Chabad position. For a year Lubavichers pressured the Rebbe to accept the Nesius until he finally relented. They started pressuring him to announce that he’s Moshiach in 1965. Finally in 1991 he agreed to accept the position. Telling Lubavichers about Rambam doesn’t register because they believe that whatever the Rebbe wants he gets because of Tzaddik Gozeir.

Sechel, let me get this straight – so they had questions in learning. They asked a Rebbe. Instead of answering, the Rebbe sang a song, and their questions disappeared. This is supposed to show holiness? To me, this demonstrates that the Rebbe was lacking in Torah knowledge. He didn’t answer their questions, and it doesn’t say they got answers at all. All the story says is that the questions disappeared from their minds.
I think that’s a bad thing, not a good thing.

@damoshe: to explain a bit more about the nigun:
questions are a lack of understanding.
its explained in kabala and chassidus that questions come from klipa that covers over on kidusha. so when a person rises to a higher level, he understands the sugay better and the questions disapper. this can either be by learning deeper or be revealing a deeper level in the neshama.
in Raaya Mehemna, it says that “a kashya – query…emanates from the side of evil.” this is explained in tanya igeres 26 and more at length in hemshech 5666 page 120-122 in the new print
to point out for those who want to see for themselves, look at any maamer of any of the chabad rabbaim. almost all them start with questions on the parsha or holiday, then explain an idea in chassidus, then answer the questions automaticlly. this is more clear in a continuation of maamarim like 5666 (60 maamarim) which is one lenthy idea in chassidus slip up into 60 shabbosim and y”t. and each week the rebbe rashab added questions on the parsha, then continued the idea where he left off, then answered the questions. Because thru a maamer which reveals yechida shebinefesh and yechida of torah – all the questions are answered.