A Chasidus without a present Rebbe

@lakewhut
We have not just writings from 40 years ago, but even audio recordings…and many, many writings and first hand accounts of those who were there (so 1st and 2nd hand accounts, not so much 3rd).
Gdolim in Chabad – R’ Yoel was a very big one until he passed, the Jacobsons are major (YY and Simon), not to forget good ol’ Manis Friedman and his brothers….In EY there are quite a few that I’m more familiar with (I’m sure there are plenty of names of Gdolim of Chabad who are more in the “nigleh” realm – their names don’t tend to be as broadly known because the more knowledgeable Chabad Chassidim (and there are plenty of them) don’t make themselves very well known for their Torah knowledge, I’m more familiar with those in EY) – there are the members of the Chabad Beis Din, which the Rebbe ZY”A established to make proper decisions on the derech HaTorah as it pertains to the derech that the Rebbe established within Chabad – Rabbi Yeruslavski, Rabbi Gluchovsky, etc. There’s Rabbi Yechezkel Sofer who’s a tremendous Talmid Chochom, (I’m talking about nigleh now, of course), Rabbi Goldshmidt (The grandfather – who’s extremely knowledgeable in all chelkei haTorah – when he first received a position as Rosh Yeshiva in the Chabad Mesivta in Bnei Brak, he was asked to take the Heichal Shlomo test in order to be officially recognized by the medina as being a rav, so he took a bus over that day and got 100% on the test…), Rabbi Volpa is a major figure as well with an amazing wealth of knowledge, oh, and not to forget Rabbi Farkash! He’s an amazing one… There’s Rabbi Goldberg from Migdal Haemek as well, and a number of other geonim from the latter….and so on.

Each of these names are an authority in his own home town or neighborhood, and Chabad Chassidim look to them for guidance on particular matters. The bigger Chabad figures – such as the ones first mentioned, like the Jacobsons, Manis, Shais Taub, etc… – are famous for their knowledge of Chabad Chassidus, specifically the Rebbe’s, and in this capacity, are turned to for guidance in place of the Rebbe – only it’s not so much as “instead of” the Rebbe, as it is “what would the Rebbe have told me to do in such a case? – And since the Rebbe left so many teachings to be learned, and sooo many letters answering specific and general questions in light of these teachings, and on and on, it is very easy for an individual knowledgeable in these teachings etc. to provide guidance based on them.

Arguably, since the Rebbe realized that the event of Gimmel Tammuz would eventually arrive, he must have taken several measures to prepare for that event —
(just as an anecdote, for the yellow flaggers among us – the Rebbe himself is the one who designed the compound of the Ohel, where the Rebbe and his predecessor are both buried, and if you consider the way it was designed before the Rebbe’s own histalkus, you will notice something very “strange” indeed – the Previous Rebbe’s tzion is not located, as I would “expect” if I were waving yellow flags around, in the center of the compound, but rather it was placed BY THE REBBE HIMSELF, very conveniently, off to the side, ALMOST as if to leave room for another kever where the Rebbe’s own kever happens to be today! Imagine that!)

As I was saying, one of the measures the Rebbe took ahead of the inevitable, was to institute a practice of each chossid having a Rav and/or Mashpia to approach with personal questions. Very often the Rebbe would refer those asking questions to a Rav instead of answering himself, proabably in order to strengthen this established inyan.

And to @2qwerty –
Yes, obviously.

I’d like to mention another inyan in relation to what @2qwerty asked, something that is mentioned (more often “in-between the lines” to those who learn l’iyuna) in Chassidus but is not often “noticed” or mentioned by Chabadniks unfortunately – there is a concept in Torah known as a “moshiach prati” – a private mashiach. The concept of mashiach refers to a daas Torah who in one way or another “redeems” another Yid, or a number of Yidden, from their own personal Mitzrayim/galus. By following a certain derech of Torah (70 panim…) as is laid out by an authoritative figure, a Jew hopes to climb to new heights in his avoda by following that derech. Climbing heights in this avoda effectively serves as an exodus from his personal mitzrayim, whether each day, each month, year, etc. This is one of the deeper explanations behind the discussion in Sanhedrin in which each Tanna will say the name of Moshiach, where they will mention their own teacher’s name. It is obvious that asked who the moshiach is, a Torah-based individual would mention his own rebbe’s name, because THAT is whom he holds to be the ACTUAL individual who has taken/takes him out of galus! Indeed, beyond this personal relationship, the talmid would pray and hope that his own rebbe would take ALL of Israel out of Galus, as the mashiach klali, but the two are not mutually exclusive. This is also why they mention even names of figures who have already passed – since it is not relevant in terms of following their own teacher’s path as the derech to one’s personal geula, since their teachings carry on.

Now, Chabad chassidim still hold the Rebbe to be their own personal mashiach in that same regard – we still follow his teachings, we still hope to spread his teachings with the hope that their light and influence can aid the avodas Hashem of other Yidden (no, it’s not the only way, but obviously we will be proud of what we have). I’m NOT speaking about extreme cases right now, just about the essential inyan. I’m NOT going into the politics, the actual practices of many Chabadnikim (particularly on this forum…), and so forth, I’m only mentioned the inyan as it is at the source, and as it is celebrated by a very, very quiet portion of Chabad Chassidim and which I firmly hold to be the true and proper derech that Chabad is meant to be (the sources are on my side…).

With all the above in mind, do we hope the Rebbe–being the figure that he is to us until this day–will still be goel all of Israel? Obviously that’s not quite a possibility right now, and part of the issue is that many Chabadniks can’t differentiate between their connection to their Rebbe’s derech that he set for them, and the reality of an actual living Mashiach. When thinking of the concept of “mashiach”, the typical Chabadnik immediately relates to the only version of mashiach known to them – that of Mashiach prati/personal mashiach, and they conflate that with the final coming of mashiach. Yes, this is a problem, but maybe this will shed a new light on a very, very old discussion.

Menachem Shomrei,
I’m not gonna write the history. I’m just gonna let you in on a (perhaps painful) secret.
We are not so different or special than any other groups in many areas.
I think everyone agrees we can look at 250 years of the US or 250 years of the Amish in America & see it’s history, society, customs, decisions & motivations but for some reason to many of us think we’re so “special” that Chasidism is above all these things. Well guess what? We’re not.

Kuvult, I’m not sure what you mean or how it answers my point.
If you’re trying to say that an outsider to chassidus doesn’t see anything special about it? That’s pretty much what I responded to you previously about the outsider historian’s claim to frum Jews.

To the group
What’s interesting is that the Lubavichers don’t ask tbe counter question, “If the Rebbe is Moshiach will you(non Lubavichers) accept him? Obviously they know the answer. Torah Jews will accept, as Moshiach the person who meets Rambam’s criteria.

To the group

Let’s examine sechel’s latest. He quotes Rambam, “If a king will arise from the House of David.” The Rebbe wasn’t and isn’t a king. “who will compel all of Israel to walk in the way of the Torah” The overwhelming majority of Jews have no connection to the Torah. I could go on, but you get the point.

The concern has been expressed periodically over several hundred years that the normal (and some would say “obligatory”) custom of the Rebbe’s oldest son typically being chosen as the NEW rebbe when his father is niftar, does not always assure the best leadership of a chassidus. There may be reasons why another member of the immediate or extended family, or even someone from outside the family, would better extend the lineage, customs, hashkafah of the prior rebbe and perhaps more importantlly, provide the leadership and fundraising skills which are also of great importance in maintaining the Mosdos of a chassidus.

What happened last week was a bunch of bucherim who took it into there own hands and based on their own interpretation of what the Rebbeh may or may have not said decided to go ahead a destroy a shul, something that would have unthinkable with a true chosid of the old.

This is also unthinkable for a true chosid today, hence the outcry and outrage from all mashpiim, shluchim, rabbanim, balebatim and bochurim.

Menachem Shmei,
I’m not talking as an outsider about a secular approach to who wrote the Torah.
I’m discussing the historical narrative of Chasidism based on how it was created & structured. Jews (inc. Chasidim) don’t live in a bubble. Chasidism didn’t start when it did by random chance. The world entered the “Modern Era” around 1,700. 2 factors were at play. The “Enlightenment” which questioned everything about the world including religion & “Emancipation” Jews lived in forced Kehillas were they were told how to live & how to practice. These 2 issues rocked the Jewish world to its core. The question was how to deal with this new world? Various methods developed. For instance “Reform” Judaism. In order to fit into this new & modern era we literally need to REFORM how Judaism is practiced.
Another modern movement was “Chasidism” It’s not a “coincidence” when it started. It was a direct reaction to what was going on in this new world. (Almost all) Chasidic sects existed based on 2 principles. 1. With the pull of the new ideas it’s not enough to be Jewish, to survive you need to be “Super” Jewish. Everything is taken to the next level to keep Jews from getting near any modernization. This dealt with Enlightenment. 2. Emancipation, where Jews were no longer forced to live as part of a real Kehilla that had the power to fine you, jail you, tax you, & tell you how to practice Judaism. Chasidism is a direct response to Emancipation by (re)creating the Kehilla albeit with less power & on a volunteer basis (which actually makes members more loyal). This model worked by have an all powerful (in the sect) Rebbe who can navigate the waters of modernization as one unified group. Take a govt decree, how can an individual fight them? They can’t. But if a Rebbe tells his thousands of followers not to do it there’s nothing much the govt (before Stalin) could do. This almost militaristic passive resistance is what enabled Chasidism to flourishing & attract many new members. This ONLY works when there is a Rebbe controlling & guiding his followers.
I understand your special relationship with a Rebbe which you feel is above the natural world & that’s fine. But at the same time we live in this world & I stand by the reality that “There is no such thing as a Chosid without a Rebbe”

To kuvult

You write beautfully and logically, but logic is lost edited. I will challenge you on one point. The Baal Shem predated the Enlightenment. His goal, in spreading Chassidus, was making the Tehilim Yid feel that his Avodas Hashem was also a valid expression of Yiddishkeit.

Absolutely. In December of 2008, Rabbi Shlomo Cunin declared that the Rebbe runs the world and he will take us out of Golus. He should have been removed from his position, but nothing, as far as I know was done.

PS when you have people like @83 who think what was done was 100% ok is all the proof that you need a living breathing rebbe.

common, no one has yet answered my question: What about other chassidusen that also have dumb people who do really dumb things like violence and fighting that makes it to the news etc. DESPITE having a living breathing rebbe? The only response I’ve gotten is “How dare you point out problems in any sect which is not Chabad.”

In the Rebbe’s opening address on Yud Shevat 73 years ago, he said that Chabad chassidus doesn’t believe in the concept of relying on the rebbe to do all the work for you. Every chossid has bechira chofshis to work on refining himself and behaving properly, or ch”v the opposite.

Here’s a free translation of that sicha (right after saying the first maamar, formally accepting the nesius):

Fellow Jews, listen now!

Traditionally, Chabad has demanded that every individual do his own avodah alone, instead of relying on the Rebbeim. This is the difference66 between the Polish school of Chassidus and the Chabad school of Chassidus. The former school has a non-literal interpretation of the verse,67 וצדיק באמונתו יחי-ה — “And a tzaddik lives with his faith”: “Do not read yichyeh but [in the causative mood] yechayeh.” I.e., it is the tzaddik who gives life to all those who are bound to him. We of Chabad, however, all have to do our own work alone, with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the body and with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the soul.

The Sages teach:68 הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים — “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven.” I am not (G‑d forbid) withdrawing from giving help to the degree that one’s capabilities allow. However, since “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven,” then if there is no independent individual avodah, what can be gained from giving out manuscripts [of Chassidus], singing niggunim, and saying LeChaim?

The Rebbe [Rayatz] used to warn chassidim against self-delusion. Every individual chassid himself has to transform the folly of the Other Side [i.e., of the forces of evil] and the seething disposition of his animal soul — to kedushah.69

To Common

You”re right that Chabad needs a living Rebbe, but that Rebbe must explain to the Chassidim that the deification of the Rebbe must end. The person who could do this is Rabbi Shaul Shimon Deutch but he was driven out of CH for saying the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach.

This thread gave my an interesting question

What should happen to a chassidus that doesn’t have a present rebbe does every chassid decide to join a different chassidus? What if their mehalech doesn’t match with others?

Just wondering 🤔

To sechel83
You ask, “If someone comes and says he’s Moshiach how will you know to believe him or not? If someone says he’s Moshiach he belongs in a mental hospital. The person who will be accepted as Moshiach will have fulfilled all of Rambam’s criteria. Thanks for your excellent question. Sadly no Lubavicher answers my questions.

Ysiegel, could you please give a source for a “mashiach prati”?

I’ve never heard of it, and I wonder if there is a clear source for it. Also, I’m very surprised that no one else has asked for the source.

”I have 1 simple question for Lubavitch Chassidim. If Moshiach comes today but he isn’t the Rebbe, would you accept him?’

Well, its a nuanced answer, and likely depends. If its another chabadnik, perhaps yes. If its someone who looks strangely Litvish, adds “V’yatzmach purkanei” to kaddish and asks for some more sugar with his fish, perhaps not

To sechel83

You asked me a simple question, “If someone says he’s Moshiach how would I know to believe him or not?” I answered that no person has the right to say that he’s Moshiach and if he does he should be put in a mental institution. ARSo just explained Rambam’s criteria for being Moshiach. If he accomplijshes all those things he ‘s Moshiach. It’s very simple edited

arso and qwerty: you did not explain how moshiach can come. you basiclly explain its impossible for moshiach to come cuz he needsa to be a king appointed by a navi and sanhedrin. and force every jew to keep torah by himself with no help.
so unlike you. i and alot of others actually learned the rambam in depth and many other sources about the coming of moshiach. the rebbe has over 500 pages printed explaining the last 2 peraking of hilchos melachim. so go learn and dont say moshiach cant come.
no person has the right to say that he’s Moshiach and if he does he should be put in a mental institution: like the amoraim in sanhedrin, the gra and is written by his talkid in sefer קול התור. i think anyone who says they are a rosh yeshiva should be put in a mental insitution. or anyone who says he’s a rov, a doctor, anything!

Arso, if you’re gonna say we went through it, please add that we’ve gone through your points before (1-4). At least I think it’s been rehashed multiple times. Maybe not though, so brief recap here:

I haven’t learned the sugya in depth to the point that I could list by heart the references of how melech refers to Rabbanim with leadership personalities (as you admitted, the Rambam doesn’t make sense to explain as a literal king because then he’d be in Eretz Yisrael , anointed by Sanhedrin etc and the Rambam is speaking of the person who leads the process from golus)

2. If Beis HaRav are able to trace their lineage, and you have no logical reason to dispute it (besides the obvious issue of saying they were lying), what’s your point? I also remember learning, that Moshiach can be descended from Malchus Beis David through his mother- and that was in relation to the Jews for Judaism course on fighting christinity if I’m not mistaken, and the reason why the rabbits bring this up with yoshkes lineage lhavdil, is because the christians don’t believe in Torah shebaal peh so we fight them with their weapons. So apparently that source is in Gemara- again calling all the learned menfolk on that

3. In the language of Halacha, compel is also used to mean convince with words (we won’t need policemen when Moshiach comes, as Hashem promises to return our judges but not policemen, and you think Moshiach is the guy who has to physically compel people to listen to him? And with no policeman- cuz we’re in golus. Like you said you don’t understand your own understanding of the Rambam)

I think that was all your points.

Just a disclaimer, I have a reliable source to say that the Rebbes main aim was not to convince the world that he’s Moshiach, at that point, but just to let the c he chassidim know.

I wrote a post here why I think The Rebbe thought that was important, but it wasn’t posted…

CS: “as you admitted, the Rambam doesn’t make sense to explain as a literal king because then he’d be in Eretz Yisrael , anointed by Sanhedrin etc and the Rambam is speaking of the person who leads the process from golus”

I never wrote anything like that! Once again, I wrote that the if we’re going to follow the Rambam, which 1000s of Lubavichers have quoted over the last 30 years, then I don’t know how it will work. But I never chas veShalom said the Rambam doesn’t make literal sense.

“If Beis HaRav are able to trace their lineage, and you have no logical reason to dispute it (besides the obvious issue of saying they were lying)”

I have lots of logical reasons to dispute it, but that is irrelevant. The Beis Din Hagodol in Lishkas Hagozis would investigate all kohanim to see if they were meyuchosim. I assume they will also investigate any claim to being Davidic. I don’t think anyone would agree with you that someone claiming to trace their lineage is good enough. That sounds ludicrous. Does anyone following this disagree with me?

“In the language of Halacha, compel is also used to mean convince with words”

Sources please.

All the Chabad arguments on this thread just make me think of a story. It’s a famous one, many have probably heard it before.
A man is walking through the woods, and he sees a tree with a target painted on it. Right in the center of the bullseye is an arrow. A few trees over, he sees the same thing again.
As he walks, he sees more and more targets painted, each with an arrow exactly in the center.
Eventually, he sees a man holding a bow and arrow. “Did you shoot all those other arrows,” he asks?
“Yes, I did!” the archer replies.
“How did you get so good, that each one is exactly in the bullseye?”
The archer laughed. “I shoot the arrow at the tree. After it hits it, I paint the target around the arrow!”

Chabad (wrongfully) decided that their Rebbe is Mashiach. Now they’re “painting the target”, trying to twist sources to show that they’re correct. They didn’t decide he was Mashiach because of the sources, they’re using them all after the fact to try and convince others that they’re right.

We see here what happens when you point out that they’re wrong – all you get is, “Learn Chassidus! You aren’t an expert, so you can’t have an opinion!”

People used to say that Lubavitch is the closest religion to Judaism. I don’t think that’s even true anymore.

Here’s what I’m referring to: I remember learning a piece from the reshimos (The Rebbes learning diary from before he became Rebbe) where The Rebbe asked why it’s necessary to await Moshiach’s coming every day, if Eliyahu HaNavi will precede him by three days. So logically, if Eliyahu hasn’t come yet, how can I expect Moshiach to come today?

The answer is that there’s three stages in Moshiach’s revelation: (trying to remember the exact lashon by heart, because Rabbeinu Bachya says similar so I’ll include both versions of the wording):
1. His first revelation/ to the ones that know him
2. Fighting the wars of Hashem
3. His revelation to everyone

And Eliyahu haNavi can come before any point in those stages, so we need to be prepared for Moshiach, even without.

So everyone can be happy now. For everyone (outside Lubavitch) it will be obvious when Moshiach is here, so you don’t have to keep fighting- you can just wait til stage 3.

For other sources on the stages, see Rabbeinu bachya who explains that כימי צאתך מארץ מצרים אראנו נפלאות just like Moshe revealed himself, and then the slavery
intensified just as Moshe Rabbeinu disappeared again, and then he came again and did the makkos, so too by the final geula this will happen and it will be a test of Emuna.

Also see the Rashi on Daniel אשרי המחכה.

There may have been other sources listed on the Reshima (or not as it wasn’t for publication) but I haven’t had the pleasure of seeing it in the original

CS,

So you believe that the Rebbe, zt”l, who was niftar almost 30 years ago, is mashiach?

sechel83: “the following ideas i have a different understanding of then you.
rebbe, chassidus, moshiach, alive, tzadik, (in one words its all yechida – go learn what that means)”

As DaMoshe pointed out, the beliefs held by you and most (if not all) Lubavichers are targets that are painted after the arrows have been shot. In other words – in case the good head Hashem gave you isn’t quite as good as you think 🙂 – all these things, when attributed to your rebbe, are attributed because you want a certain outcome and you work backwards. Those of us who do not have the same agenda would not attribute them.