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See https://www.jewishpress. com/sections/features/features-on-jewish-world/a-day-of-tragedies-20-sivan/2021/08/19/
On the Jewish calendar, EVERY DAY is filled with countless tragedies, from the first day or the year, to the last day of the year, and 100% of the days in between.
This entire discussion is pointless, and should be deleted.
Reb E, this was a good suggestion for a Shoah commemoration. As of now, we ended up with a day accepted by some, and not accepted by others because it was established by the first ones. Maybe we should use Sivan 20 for all Yidden who perished in 20th century perturbations, (in chronological order): whether WW1, Russian civil war, communist labor camps, Nazi persecutions, Hungarian 1956 rebellion, Arab revolutions, Israeli wars …
As soon as we return to Hashem through serious teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation then Hashem will be able to stop sending klal yisroel horrific tragedies that we think we can fool Hashem that we don’t get his wake up call for serious teshuva and Achdus ASAP and then Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov with us then we will be restarting to be makriv daily karbanos in the third Bais hamikdosh which will stay built forever.
Some of my rebbeim spoke about 20 sivan. I don’t understand people who take issue with it or go as far as square(I’ve never heard such things in person, baruch Hashem) to repudiate something many tzadikim taught to do.
Jewish communities the world over had significant dates that they used to commemorate bad and good occasions. 20 sivan was from among the more widespread.
which is mostly the same as niftarim from the wars.. does this override the minhag of using the date the person was last seen?
Thanks R.E. for the Hebrewwboks page reference.
Square,
Your disrespect is shocking. If the topic doesn’t interest you, don’t post.
This fast is brought in Magen Avraham (או”ח סו”ס תקפה)
נוהגין להתענות עשרים בסיום בכל מלכות פוליןEven for those who don’t fast, it is a day that can be spent in teshuva and introspection. Davening for the end to our suffering in golus and the coming of Moshiach.
See Sefer Hasichos 5751 vol. 2 pg. 611
By the way, current estimates of Jewish casualties are lower than it was before – in tens of thousands rather than 100,000 and higher, primarily because Jewish communities in Ukraine were small and dispersed, as the Jews were managing Polish farms, and probably had 50,000 people total. By those times, it was understandable that stories and rumors created an impression of an even bigger suffering that it was, given the high proportional devastation.
At the same time, this rebellion led to further occupation of Poland by Sweden and Russia, leading to huge losses both in Polish and Jewish population immediately then, and eventually bringing Jews into Russian empire, with all the suffering that this entailed. So, maybe the focus of remembering 1648 is in a longer term effect rather than immediate.
The common response on his site to a distinct day of commemoration for the Holocaust has always been no, it’s included in Tisha B’Av. What makes 20th of Sivan different?
Anon, great question!
The gedolim were opposed to making a Holocaust day for a number of reasons. The chazon ish said that we’re not on the level of previous generations to declare commemorative days. Others said that it would inevitably fall into the narrative of the zionists, who profane the Holocaust as the epitome of Jewish failure in exile and “proof” that we need a state with an army etc…
Others say that the Holocaust was so huge and daunting that it transcends just one day; since we’re not empowered to make restrictive days like Tisha baav, and a simple commemoration like 29 sivan wouldn’t suffice, our hands are tied.
Always…, learn the facts and stop with the anti-Russian propaganda. The territories taken from Poland by Russia in the 17-th and 18-th centuries were the territories of the early Russia occupied by Poland-Lithuania, and they still had their Russian population (the Ukrainian and White-Russian varieties). The only exception was Lithuania proper taken at the end of the 1700-s, but it was the Lituanians who started with occupation of the Russian lands in the 1300-s. Immediate losses among the Yidden were worse than the Tach-veTat?!? For sure not true. Later suffering under Russia? You mean the pogroms in which the Ukrainians had a disproportionate role?
Mdd1, apparently you never heard of the Pale, heavy taxation, unfair court system, pogroms initiated by Czars to distract the peasants , forced Russian education etc
Anonymous…, heavy taxation and unfair courts were worse than 1648-49?!? Pogroms — in which disproportionate role played the descendants of the 1648-49 perpetrators? Forced Russian education never actually happened. And, again, it would have been worse than 1648-49?!? And forced education became common in the developed countries at that time.
Mdd1, the pale of settlement? The pogroms launched after the death of Alexander were promoted and spurred on by the Russians but did take place largely in Ukraine and Poland because that’s where the Russians confined the Jews!
The ferocity and savagery was so severe that it prompted the great Jewish emigration to the U.S. The pogroms continued into the 20th centuryAnonymous…, those pogroms were incomparable to to the scale and savagery of the Tach-ve-Tat!! Note, by the way, they happened in Ukraine, but not so much in Belarus (White Russia).
The Pale? It was not fun, but it was nothing in comparison to the 1648-49!And just to pre-empt: Belarus and Lithuania were parts of the Pale.
Mdd1, several issues here:
1) I quoted numbers of victims from recent research. I have no independent opinion on that, but this seems to be more fact-based research than oral history from that time.2) not sure how history of Litvish/Polish ownership of Slav regions is relevant here. It has nothing to do with Russia, aka Moscovia. I don;t think we need to resolve battles between Kiev, Poland, etc. If we take a side, it should be Jewish Khazars 🙂
3) my main point was that this Ukrainian cruel rebellion was the beginning of Russian occupation of Polish (and thus Jewish) areas, leading to several centuries of difficult Jewish history, including pogroms, cantonists, etc, etc. Note that Ukrainians or whoever they were at the time, Kozaks, peasants wanted to be “partners” with the Czar and soon understood that they made a deal with the devil, but it was too late.
4) the essence of pogrom (russian word) is not just violence, but that it was organized and had government support. So, even if Ukrainian peasants attacked Jews (obviously, not Russian peasants as Jews were not allowed to live in Russia proper with exceptions), it was impossible to defend as the police will arrest the Jews who would try to fight.
5) Jews consistently took the Polish side during the latter rebellions against Russia. The only pro-Russian group seemed to be Chabad, with Alter Rebbe deciding that Napoleons come and go, but Russian Czar will still be there … and anyway safer from haskala .. He passed away running away from Napoleon
mdd > Belarus and Lithuania were parts of the Pale.
of course, all Polish areas occupied by Russia were the Pale, Russia proper did not let Jews in from very early in Moscow history. I don’t think this was the case in other slavic and eastern european lands: Jews settled in Poland, Belorussia, Kievan Rus, Crimea. Not sure, were there any other countries in Eastern Europe who did not allow Jews? (in Western: England for a time)
Anon, Jewish history under Russian empire predates Alexander. Russians were pressuring Jews into assimilation and submission to a centralized system early on. In Vilno, Misnagdim and Chasidim were appealing to Russ. gov. against each other, and this was of course used by Russians to divide and conquer. Similar to Pompey coming to make peace for Chashmonaim.
At some point, R. Salanter was offered a position as a head of Russian-led educational system. He hesitated, thinking that he would have a positive effect on it, but at the end his, and others, decision was to totally disassociate from the Russian-forced school and rabbinical system, so that nobody would confuse an appointed “official” rabbi and a real one.
There were also several visits by groups of gedolim to Petersburg, trying to argue for various leniencies in schooling.
Always…, you are very ignorant of the whole history of the region, and your posts are therefore truly annoying. Buy for yourself a serious history textbook on the topic and read it in the bathroom (to avoid bittul Torah).
mdd1, thanks for your learnt input. Presumably from the bathroom?
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