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Sam – Stop with your ridiculous understanding of Halacha. I just saw the S’A again recently.
If you want to say they don’t know better -this is ridiculous.
They know what they want to know. These MO know about Kashrus & Shabbos, etc. But they never heard about Tzinus? Yea, right!
They just don’t care about it for whatever reason.
Health: Yes, well that “whatever reason” can make a tremendous difference, can’t it? Or do you think that every “MO”, as you put it, is a Mumar Lehachis on the Issur Asei of Tznius? Oh, and before you call my understanding of Halacha ridiculous you might want to bring up a source to back up your assertion. Until you can prove that these women violate Tznius (I will admit that I am unsure about this, does being a Mumar to be Mevatel an Asei Lechachis even make you a Mumar L’chol Hatorah Kulah?) and that they do it Lehachis, you have no claim here.
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, because they keep Shabbos and Kashrus properly they also have a reason to consider what they are doing keeping Tznius properly?
Ye,ye. Today is the last day of Chanuka. We are celebraring the victory of the “violent extremist” Chashmonaim over the Greeks. And do you know what their zeides did in times of Yehoshua? They killed those Kenanim who refused to do teshuva or leave. Can you imagine? Totally not your version of Judaism.
Now, I agree that it might be unwise to be violent giving the circumstances. I do not think one is allowed to spit at a somebody else’s minor, either. However, let us not twist the Torah, either.
Sam2, stop with your naive assumptions. Namely, that if someone keeps Shabbos and Kashrus properly, then, it must be they keep Tsnius too, or, at least, they think they do. Have you ever heard of a mumar le’davar echad? Someone might just not care enough or have yetser hora for a particular aviera.
Is it tzniut to be standing outside a girls school looking at 8 year old girls?
Sam2 -“Health: Yes, well that “whatever reason” can make a tremendous difference, can’t it? Or do you think that every “MO”, as you put it, is a Mumar Lehachis on the Issur Asei of Tznius? Oh, and before you call my understanding of Halacha ridiculous you might want to bring up a source to back up your assertion.”
Look I was saying that unless they are clueless (which makes them a Tinokes Sneshbu) then they might be Bchlal Amesecha. We went through this 100 times already. Even though I have a Diyuk from the Rambam that Tinuk Sneshbu isn’t part of Amesecha -I told MDD that I’m not sure. These people are Not T.S. -they know about Kashrus & Shabbos so they have no Din of T.S. So these people don’t have a Din Amesehca.
“Until you can prove that these women violate Tznius (I will admit that I am unsure about this, does being a Mumar to be Mevatel an Asei Lechachis even make you a Mumar L’chol Hatorah Kulah?) and that they do it Lehachis, you have no claim here.”
C’mon -what do you think I am – a two year old? Before I say a group isn’t Frum -I check it out. I found a video of this M.O. group online during one of their first demonstrations -by and far most women aren’t dressed Tzinyusdik, eg. No hair covering, T-shirts with short sleeves, etc. I’m not hear to teach you S’A but check out the S’A on Roay Bhama Daka and see the CC that says any Aveira time after time (And the Aveira doesn’t have to be L’hachas) takes you out of s/o you can’t speak L.H. on.
(Eg. -They aren’t Bechlal Amesecha and Bein Odom L’chaveiro doesn’t apply to them.)
“Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, because they keep Shabbos and Kashrus properly they also have a reason to consider what they are doing keeping Tznius properly?”
So why don’t they keep Tzinus? Unless you think it’s Ok to dress the way they do -hair showing, arms & legs showing, etc.?
“Is it tzniut to be standing outside a girls school looking at 8 year old girls?”
Looking at 8 year old girls opens another can of worms. Looking at their mothers is bad enough.
It should be pointed out that the Chashmonaim killed those who brought “karbanos” to the greek gods, not women who may have dressed in a manner THEY do not deem proper but other legitimate poskim did. The men of Beis Shammai did not go around spitting at the women of Beis Hillel who wore things outside on shabbos that Beis Shammai felt was not a tachshit.
Not all poskim state that stocking must be whatever denier thick with seems up the back, or hold that sheitels are not valid hair covering, or that the shok is the entire area from the bottom of the knee to the ankle and so on. What this really boils down to is they have their minhagim and poskim and heaven help anyone who lives their life according to any other poskim and minhagim.
This is exactly why Israel needs separation between church (shul) & state. Perhaps next the Burka Babes (not my term) will enforce THEIR version of Tznius. And why not? It is not as if violence is punished in the third world country called Ramat Beis Shemesh.
I suggest that we replace many of our gedolim with new ones. After all, I have access to pictures of them on the beach with girls, and of their wives with their hair uncovered.
How about this solution? The fathers bring the girls to school or the mothers dress Tzinus for the few minutes every day of bringing and picking up the kids?
Oh, and most of the Charedim do this, not just a very few!
They are right next door.
Well the MO “Frum” Jews can move to the West Bank with all the other MO’s that live there.
“by and far most women aren’t dressed Tzinyusdik, eg. No hair covering, T-shirts with short sleeves, etc.”
I have no idea what video you saw, and certainly can not disagree with what you claim you saw. On the other hand, I have seen several videos of this 8 year old girl and her mother. Both are dressed appropriately, hair covered, hemlines covering the appropriates places etc… YES it is true, she was not dressed according to the rulings of chassidishe (and other yerushalmi)poskim, but she is not chassidishe and should not have to, even if those men insist on it. The more I hear people defend the spitter and his defenders the more I realize this is about control of an area, not about dressing according to halacha.
It’s a terrible thing to do this to this girl.
Unfortunately, there are idiots in all groups, including ours.
Equally unfortunately, is the media writes this up as the entire Jewish people are doing this or alluding to the fact the instead of this being done by idiots, it is being done “in Judaism”.
They should be warned and acted upon if they continue the battery upon this child.
apushatayid -“I have no idea what video you saw, and certainly can not disagree with what you claim you saw. On the other hand, I have seen several videos of this 8 year old girl and her mother.”
Well I posted there is a picture of her sitting on her couch
giving an interview and her hair is showing. But let’s ignore the truth and pretend the Charedim are just starting up!
Oh, they are sitting and learning, but when they are at home they look out the window and see Pritzus. I know you can’t comprehend this, but it bothers them.
“Well the MO “Frum” Jews can move to the West Bank with all the other MO’s that live there.
So let them move and then they can busy themselves with burning and desecrating Mosques and attacking Jewish soldiers, like the others that live there.
It’s funny – the media will condenm the whole Charedi world for the “terrible” violent actions of a few spitters, but they won’t condenm the whole Settler movement (Mostly M.O. Jews) for extreme violence committed against Arabs and soldiers!
Health: No one is claiming “the Chareidim” are starting up. People are (accurately) stating that a group of idiots who pretend to be Chareidim are starting up.
Also, can you cite your CC please? I want to look at it. If you’re quoting it properly, it seems to be the exact opposite of something in the beginning of the Simla Chadasha. Also, I feel like you’re overextending where to apply “Amisecha”, but that is a discussion for a different time.
Hi Health.
The media condemns all Jews like no other group.
Whether they are bearded and work in kashrus or clean shaven and from Wall Street.
But in this case, with spitting on this girl……it’s not a media circus. It is news that we need to
take mussar from, big time!
“Well I posted there is a picture of her sitting on her couch…and her hair is showing”.
I have not seen any pictures, only videos. The videos I have seen show a woman whose hair is covered properly. Perhaps not properly to your liking or to the liking of some of her neighbors, that is not her issue though. As long as it meets the halachic requirements as explained to her by her family Rav, then she is doing everything proper.
“But let’s ignore the truth”
I did not ignore the possibility that you saw pictures that I have not seen, however, you seem to ignore the possibility that every video I have seen of this woman shows a woman with properly covered hair.
Oh, they are sitting and learning, but when they are at home they look out the window and see Pritzus.
That’s why curtains were invented.
And obviously, they’re not sitting and learning if they are out screaming at little girls.
Health, as a side point, like I told you already, check the S.A. Hilchos Ribbis that it is ossur to lend money on interest to a tinok she’nishba, but it is mutar to do it with a mumar. One is bechlal “Amisecha”, and one is not.
Heath, I’ve been following the posts and have a few questions and points
1. Did the MO neighborhoods and approval for the school precede the buildings that the Chareidim occupy? If so they can’t complain now about the view.
2. Is the school in fact on the border? If it is and the times of the day when the girls go and come from school, why do the men any out on tat corner if the so offends them?
Sam2 -“Health: No one is claiming “the Chareidim” are starting up. People are (accurately) stating that a group of idiots who pretend to be Chareidim are starting up.”
Well those guys aren’t starting up either. They are reacting to UnTzinus dress that they are constantly exposed to!
“Also, can you cite your CC please? I want to look at it.”
Mostly #4, but a lot of places besides this.
BTGuy -“But in this case, with spitting on this girl……it’s not a media circus. It is news that we need to
take mussar from, big time!”
Whom needs to take Mussar the Spitter or all the Charedim?
I don’t need to take Mussar or anybody that I know -I don’t react like that!
And since you never really read my posts -I’ll repeat something I wrote above – “It’s funny – the media will condenm the whole Charedi world for the “terrible” violent actions of a few spitters, but they won’t condenm the whole Settler movement (Mostly M.O. Jews) for extreme violence committed against Arabs and soldiers!”
apushatayid -“I did not ignore the possibility that you saw pictures that I have not seen, however, you seem to ignore the possibility that every video I have seen of this woman shows a woman with properly covered hair.”
Therefore what? She made sure when the TV cameras were rolling to look presentable, but when in her home -on her couch -she let her hair down! (Let her guard down.) And this is when they snapped the picture.
mamashtakah -“That’s why curtains were invented.”
So they should never allow any sunlight in? And what about when they go in and out of their house -Ya know to Daven, to learn, to shop? They shouldn’t have to wear blinders like horses. Let the Moderne either Dress Tzinus or move their school!
“And obviously, they’re not sitting and learning if they are out screaming at little girls.”
Well once they know that bad things is going on in their neighborhood -then they are Putter from learning and have to go out and make a Machoh!
lesschumras -“1. Did the MO neighborhoods and approval for the school precede the buildings that the Chareidim occupy? If so they can’t complain now about the view.”
I don’t live there and I’m not 100% sure of the history. I think the MO neighborhoods were there first, but this “School” building was being built for a very long time. The MO just started using it for a school this year or last. I think the former Mayor tricked the Charedim into letting it be built, by saying it was going to be a Boy’s school.
“2. Is the school in fact on the border? If it is and the times of the day when the girls go and come from school, why do the men any out on tat corner if the so offends them?”
I think so.
Who says they stand out? And read my posts above that they see the Pritzus from their neighborhood.
Health: The “Moderne” don’t have to meet the Chassidish/Chareidish version of Tznius. As long as they follow what is a valid P’sak given by their Rabbanim (and while not accepted generally, there are opinions that are more Meikel by hair-covering), then no one can be Mocheh against them-and they certainly can’t insult, embarrass, or physically harm them.
Sam2 -“As long as they follow what is a valid P’sak given by their Rabbanim (and while not accepted generally, there are opinions that are more Meikel by hair-covering)”
Name one Rov that Paskens Nowadays that women can go without their hair covered, L’chatchilla?!?!
Health: Rabbi Michael Broyde of the Beis Din of America.
Sam2, not every shitta, randomly pulled out of the hat(as is the minhag by the MO), one is allowed to rely on.
Like I said, you can find very shvere (fraught with a lot difficulties), not accepted shittos to matir half of SA with them.
MDD: Rabbi Broyde isn’t pulling Shittos out of his hat. Regardless that many of the more left-wing “MO”s use a lot of Kulos, it’s a bit unfair to characterize “the Minhag by the MO” as being relying on random, not-accepted Shittos.
and while we are on the topic, most of the wigs they wear are more alluring than their normal hair anyway.
How did it work with Hillel and Shamai did they come to blows did one spit on the other or call the other’s wife a Shiksa?
mdd, that is insulting to millions of Jews. WHy are you allowed to insult ? You are distoting and ruining the Torah.
Sam2: I believe you are misquoting Rabbi Broyde. He does not hold it is lechatchila muttar for a woman to not cover her hair. He wrote that article to be melamed zchus on the women who don’t, by providing possible halachic basis, but he does not pasken that way.
See Michael J. Broyde, Hair Covering & Jewish Law: Biblical and Objective (Dat Moshe) or Rabbinic and Subjective (Dat Yehudit)? available at http://www.traditiononline.org/news/_pdfs/0095-0180.pdf
and while we are on the topic, most of the wigs they wear are more alluring than their normal hair anyway.
Welcome to Judaism. We follow halacha.
PBA: I have heard from his mouth several times. It may have been a Limud Zechus, but he holds that it’s enough for people to actually be Somech on.
Sam: That is not the same as him paskening it is muttar. You are just saying that he says if someone has that mesorah, it is a legitimate mesorah because he thinks there is such halachic basis.
There is absolutely nobody I have heard of who actually holds it is is muttar.
not every shitta, randomly pulled out of the hat(as is the minhag by the MO), one is allowed to rely on.
Not every chumra, randomly pulled out of the hat (as is the minhag by chareidim), one is allowed to rely on.
Didn’t like that, did you?
Personally, I am disgusted that you seem to think that it’s perfectly all right to accuse the entire MO movement of deciding halacha by something as capricious and arbitrary as “randomly pull[ing]” rulings “out of a hat.”
I think you owe every one of them an apology.
The Wolf
PBA: I will look into what Rabbi Broyde holds. I think I’m right as to what he holds but I will look into it more.
To the people here who have let this topic turn into an immature fight full of insults and accusations:
Please stop.
And I include myself in that, too. I posted a comment here, and if it added fuel to the fire, I am ashamed of it, and I regret it.
The problem is, people that are used to insulting others as a way to “defend” their opinion will NEVER look at themselves and see a problem, and CERTAINLY not if the problem is mentioned by another person. So they’ll just ignore this plea to stop, too. Oh well. I guess I’m wasting my time.
Wolf, denial is not a place in Egypt, and there should not be many wolves there anyway. The truth hurts.
Sam2, how is it going over there at YU? “Those who have a mesora not to cover their hair…”?????!!!! A mesora of pirtsa! And I come from a place where there is a mesora not to keep Shabbos! Have you got a heter for that?
Seriously speaking, I do not think Rabbi Broyde’s zachen is a enough of a basis, so that others would not have the right to be moche. Actually, I think, some Gedolim made a machoh against him.
MDD: I’m not saying that Rabbi Broyde is right. He is a Bar Hachi to have an opinion though, and his followers have a right to follow his opinion. Also, the Aruch Hashulchan sounds like my statement of “have a Mesora not to cover their hair” isn’t so inaccurate.
sam2, that isn’t correct. The Aruch Hashulchan OC75:8 says that it is assur for a woman to go outside with her hair uncovered. He is only lenient on it being erva when a man must say a bracha, and even then only if the man can’t see her hair. But even that is only as it relates to him saying a bracha in her presence. It isn’t a heter by any means for her uncovered status. He actually decries the practice in very strong language there.
Like I said, if there is a strong mekaling shita, you can say that others may not be moche. However, if one MO Rabbi came out with a very far-off zach, which he thinks is a heter, it does not mean that everybody has to take it seriously.
Aruch HaShulchan clearly writes that not covering the hair is a pirtsa.
Mr. Adams, hema ochrei Yisroel. People who oveir issurim are ruining the Torah.
Sam2 -“MDD: I’m not saying that Rabbi Broyde is right. He is a Bar Hachi to have an opinion though, and his followers have a right to follow his opinion. Also, the Aruch Hashulchan sounds like my statement of “have a Mesora not to cover their hair” isn’t so inaccurate.”
I asked “L’chatchilla”? And you anwsered Rabbi Broyde & the Aruch Hashulchan. Sorry, but you made this up. They posted Rabbi Brody’s Shita here in the CR awhile back and I’ve also seen the Aruch Hashulchan, both are just saying a Limud Zecus, which is not the same as saying Mutter L’chatchilla!!!!
Middle Path you are right mods please close this thread.
Hi Health.
Because you dont need to take mussar then no one does?
Lest you play the “twising words card”, I will proactively post your statement here:
“Whom needs to take Mussar the Spitter or all the Charedim?
I don’t need to take Mussar or anybody that I know -I don’t react like that!”
We all need to take this as mussar to avoid self-righteous indignation because we feel we are on a certain madraga that someone else is not on [yet]. The mussar can be for any point along the line of continuum and can include being harsh to spitting to fighting (literally and figuratively)
The fact the spitter was not pounced on immediately (by me) and he is not the only one participating in this assault on a Jewish child, is something that needs to be nipped in the bud immediately.
If there were something I can do about it, please let me know. In the meantime, it is a lesson for all of us, even in CR, to watch how we behave when we feel someone is not doing something right.
alluring wigs is Halacha? It’s a style. A an expensive lifestyle choice. The question I have is, is the majority of hair covering sufficient. There is majority of opinions to rely upon.
SO this machlokes of the Mother not fully hair covered is a chumra machloikes.
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