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what is the torah response to such a horrendous act??is there any rabbi’s that say its mutar to do such a thing….
still in shock
The guy is nuts, and should be put in jail.
Nobody says it is muttar, he is just nuts.
I agree. And I am calling him out. This is not Judaism.
Please dont call them chasidim, they are not.
What was the story here?
lemaysa, give us the whole story please. LIke you could be possibly forgetting some details as to in which context he spat.
Say like for example, the child was wearing a tzilim around his neck and wouldn’t take it off in shul , esp. during an aliyah.
Or if the child was spitting first and this was a way of teaching him how it feels to get spit on.
Or say the chasid was choking in a restaurant and while trying to dislodge the calzone with cheese and brocoli from his tonsils he accidentally spat on the kid.
Say like for example, the child was wearing a tzilim around his neck and wouldn’t take it off in shul , esp. during an aliyah.
You’d have to explain why an 8 year old with a cross is getting an aliyah?
How sad! We must daven harder for Moshiach to come.
I dont totally understand the dispute
But it has to do with a School in Beit Shemesh.
whatever the reason, NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO SPIT AT A CHILD, even say he is the child’s father and he thinks he is being mechanech the child, then people around have a chiyuv to protest on the father
Assara zhuvim is the halachic recompense, and bet din and melech have other means at their disposal for controlling sociopaths. If this was not protested by the PTB, and the “few bad apples” are not “taken out of circulation” it puts the lie to the claims that this is not the normal pr stance of this community.
the 8 year old girl was not dressed appropriately?
The evil zionim created this beit shemesh thing- way out of control. And its not an issue of girls not dressing “tznius”. Its an issue of they located the orthodox school in the WRONG DISTRICT;
Here you have innocent girls going to whatever schools in Beit shemesh, tznius according to their poskim, and its not their fault, the men are protesting. Its the gov’t, who has deliberately placed their building in the midst of the WRONG NEIGHBORHOOD on purpose to cause an upheaval.
Its always the children who suffer.
Its like the tactics that hamas uses, in Gaza. THey deliberately use hide outs near the dwellings of the people to hide beind. And the innocent suffer the consequences. The chassidim have to stand up in Beit Shemesh to protest the gov’t decisions.
and I dont mean with spit. But they have to say something.
the 8 year old girl was not dressed appropriately?
No, they are just kookoo. You don’t spit at 8 year olds, even if they’re dressed like the pope.
lol popa you’re right
The story is ongoing and very sad. I live here and can tell you that it is a small group of hooligans that attack little girls and sometimes women by spitting on them, hurling things at them and protesting their presence with name calling. The real issue is that Orot Banot, a school was allocated there years ago for the Nofei Aviv community/ Nofei Hashemesh and Sheinfeld residents. Nearby, apartments for various Chasidic groups were erected. Instead of living together harmoniously, these extremeists residents felt it was wrong for these Jews to have a building in “their” area. Truthfully the school is ideally located for the the three neighborhoods it is meant to serve. For a person from outside of Israel who is used to living near non Jews this issue is difficult to comprehend. In the eyes of these extremists, these Jews are not true yorei shomayim or shomrei Torah and mitzvos. Their methods are horrendous and illegal and they are beginning to be prosecuted. They have inflicted long lasting chillul Hashem and pain. Spitting on an eight year old girl dressed in a long sleeved t shirt and long skirt is criminal. They do it to intimidate these families and discourage them from settling in BS. They mostly hate the Anglos who are making aliya (see the video from Haaretz)) since this is who mainly live in the area. Their intimidation is not working, these anglos gave up too much to come to Israel and settle here, and they are not just going to get up and leave. Many chareidim are horrified by this behavior and have distanced themselves from these extremists.
My question is-where do they get their support? Their apartments cost money, they don’t work, and they have large families to feed. Trace the funds and I am sure we will be shocked by who is behind this. Cut off the source of the funding, and see what happens……
What do you mean who do you think is backing them?
There are “anti Israel” religious groups in chul who give money to support the cause of incitement against the State. I wish that there would be a way for people to know who these groups are and what they do before they donate money. I saw a few brochures claiming to have the endorsements of very frum rabbanim, and who emphasize that they work to purify Klal Yisrael, etc……
I would love for a major newspaper like Hamodia or Mishpacha to do some investigative reporting on this! They never will because these fanatics are capable of great damage in retaliation for exposure of their money trail. One day one publication will have the courage……….
Gemara Chagiga 5 and Bava kama 91 talks about spitting on someone,not the smartest thing to do.
I have an irreligious Jewish professor who is having a heyday with this. It’s very sad.
I live in RBS and do not feel threatened by these thugs. I also do not think that their numbers are on the rise. I think that this is a wonderful and beautiful place to live and I amazed at how kind and considerate most people are. With any growing community anywhere there will always be the fringe elements that demand attention. That this fringe element is disguised in a charedi costume is misleading. Most chareidim here are examples of middos and refinement. Do not let this group influence all the constant good that happens daily here.
why not arm the women with mace?
I estimate an insignificant number, with very few joining them. They do not make a day to day difference in my life, and I do not feel that they are suddenly everywhere.
What if those guys get mace also?
I am so sorry to hear this emunah, I truly did not know these facts!
Is it known what chassidic sect they are? Or would it be loshen hara to relate it?
The tragedy is these crazy minority group of extremists are splitting the Jewish people even further and using abusive behaviour which is beyond the pale. Israel now faces a backlash against the charedi worse than ever before, from rioting over segregated buses to terrorising little girls going to school.
For countless times children at Orot Banot have walked past so called ” charedi” extremists shouting abuse at them in a fierce menancing manner. They are not charedi, not chassidische, nor are those that riot, use violence or injure jewish emergency workers, they are rubbish, beautiful words like ” charedi” and ” chassidim” shouldn’t be used for them, they are a hilul hashem, it is agonising to watch them in action, unfortunately I have.
Emunah thank you for representing so eloquently what is really happening.
always runs with scissors fast If you did not know the facts as you so readily acknowledge why be so quick to state
“The evil zionim created this beit shemesh thing- way out of control.”
“like the tactics that hamas uses, in Gaza. THey deliberately use hide outs near the dwellings of the people to hide beind. And the innocent suffer the consequences.”
To compare the Israeli govt you may not like to murderous hamas is really upsetting, Jews, secular or not, do not send their children on suicide missions and murder those they disagree with. Those extremists living in Beit Shemesh receive government aid and enjoy full use of Israeli infracture, just visit any hospital in the area. We may all have different opinions, but please do not compare the erection of a girls school to the hiding of bombs and military hardware amongst civilians, Beit shemesh is a lovely place to live and those extremists want the advantages of living there without allowing others to exist, the others being orthodox jews with different minhagim to themselves. Tragic
always runs with scissors fast…
You clearly do NOT know the situation. This is NOT “their” neighborhood. It is in an area on the ‘border’ between ‘their’ area and ‘Torani l’eumi’ neighborhood, AND this building was ALWAYS planned as a school for these girls and NOT theirs AND these girls are dressed as totally tzniyusdik as the girls in ANY Brooklyn yeshiva. These guys are thugs and punks and if they keep it up it’s just a matter of time until some parent loses their temper and re-arranges the face of one of these guys.
What would YOU do if YOUR little daughter got spit on or had a rock thrown at her?!?! They ARE a fairly small group that are making a bad name for ALL chareidim.
Emunah 613,but this is a major escalation of long time Haredi violence against people not frum, Now its’ against people not who don’t dress exactly like them. Frum they are not.
and this violence has been ongoing there for over 10 years i have been there as well.
I am waiting to hear condemnation from major Hareidi and Chassidish leaders and poskim. Head of the Edah Chareidis, or Rav Shternbuch who called for demonstrations last year when that parking lot was opened on Shabbos.
Don’t you think these leaders set the tone for violence that leads to this, can you honestly think of something more despicable and painful?
I lived in Beis Yisroel neighborhood in the 1980’s and there was constant shouting at women then, “Kurva” “Pritza”
who supports who teaches people to do this?
Ain Od Milvado YOU are RIGHT! what can I say? 100%
tahini i said what i did because that was MY understanding. now i have heard another point of view, which doesn’t necessarily mean its true but i can do my research
“I am waiting to hear condemnation from major Hareidi and Chassidish leaders and poskim.”
adams: So true! I am not a hater, I’m really not, but this is ridiculous! These people operate under the PRETENSE of “L’sheim Shomayim” and “believe” that this kind of behavior is sanctioned according to the Torah. Where are their community leaders and Rabbonim to put an end to this? Call them out publicly. Isolate them. Publicly state that this is NOT what the G-d wants!
Of course that will not happen…. And this is why I’ve become so cynical…
It might be a small group who are actually committing the crimes but what about the majority that does nothing? They have the tacit support of the charedi (political term only) majority in the area and possibly in chu”l as well. I won’t believe the excuses until all the graffiti is off the walls, all the harassment stops and all of the perpetrators voluntarily turned over to the police by their neighbors.
The majority of the chareidim are good, decent yirai shamayim, but they are afraid to speak out against these bums for fear of physical retribution.
itche:
it might be a minority that aren’t dressing tzniyus, but what about the majority that does nothing? They have the tacit support of the MO in the area. where are the MO pulpit rabbis klapping onthe bimma and demanding longer skirts? it being aminority is no excuse as you yourself said.
and how exactly can neighbors “turn over”anyone to the police, when the police themselves cant get anyone? based on hearsay? and what will the crime be exactly? yelling prutza in protest isn’t a crime. (the spitter is a different story.)
chavalman:
1- We are talking about a religious school with a dress code that enforces tznius.
2- We (we meaning Jews bichlal) do not threaten peoples’ lives if they do klap on the bima demanding longer skirts.
3- Right now we are talking about grown men physically attacking little girls. We can address your ankle fetish another time.
adams – I disagree with “Frum” people spitting on others and it’s despicable. But, it takes Two to Tango. These modern Jews aren’t “Frum”. So even if you have the right to build a school wherever you want -do you think it’s Menchlich to build it next to a Frum neighborhood? This is called starting up.
The reason I’m calling them Not Frum is the same reason I’m calling the spitter -Not Frum. I’m actually suprised at all the comments here esp. when this story first broke. I actually believed them. The chariedim are screaming and rioting for no good reason, e/o said. But the truth is -we just have a lot of Anti-Charedim posting here.
Now even though the kids more or less are Tzinus -the women who bring them to school aren’t. All that I read over here was -of course the women dress Tzinus and I believed it. Well when this story broke all over the media -they have a picture of the girl and Mom. The mother is wearing some sort of beret but tons of long hair is hanging out. It looks too natural (all over the place) to be a wig. So if you stick your hand or foot out -it will be chopped off. (It’s possible the back is some sort of “fall”, but the front is a lot of her own hair showing out.)
It’s just as wrong to do something negative to someone who they think is doing something wrong. It’s one thing if someone thinks someone is doing something wrong and they SPEAK to them, but it’s another thing to actually do a sin ourself in reaction. For example, I remember when someone I know got upset about people we know, and I was worried that their anger might hurt our parnassah and so i got angry at him. Looking back, I realize that was not the right thing because that probrably would only make things worse, like double jeopardy. The best thing would have been that i just pray to Hashem and trust that He continues to provide.
We shouldn’t sin inorder to fix a sin, there are better ways to do things
lemaysa – It’s easy for you to write it off as “just because they have diffrent veiws on hilchos tznius doesnt meananybody who doesnt hold like you is a shaygitz”. I don’t know the Dinim and I’m not a Poisek, but I can understand why these people would have a problem seeing these women everyday – their hair is showing.
So my point is -it’s a two way street. If you want to dress the way you want and I’m pretty sure that hair uncovered is Ossur, even if some is covered; then put your school somewhere else. You can’t have your cake and eat it. Everyday you’re sticking a needle in their eye. When you start up with s/o -eventually they will react. Are all people reacting like humans or not? It depends on the person -if the person always acts like a human, then they will react like a human. If the person acts a lot like an animal, then they will react like an animal. Hence the spitting. But just because the Charedim have animals amongst them -this in no way justifies the Modern Jews behavior. The Moderne always think they are more refined than the Charedi. Is it refined behavior to have your school next to their houses where they will inevitably see Not-Tzinus women, acc. to their Rabbonim?!?
I didnt read all the posts but, Health, reffering to what you said about the lady with uncovered hair,thats not the issue at hand. The story was clearly about the little girl she got hurt for no reason there is no way to justify their actions period, ask a rav who is a poseik. Secondly the real question is do these “Chassidim” who are “so” machmir on kol haTorah Kulah not realize that Chillul Hashem is far greater than the insignificant, and yes the things they are bothered by are meaningless, halachos of tznius, they need someone to remind them of this. Lastly it is important to realize not all Charreidim are like this just the few silly individuals.
realist4u -“I didnt read all the posts but, Health, reffering to what you said about the lady with uncovered hair,thats not the issue at hand.”
It most certainly is -this is the kid’s mother. And she takes her kid to school.
“The story was clearly about the little girl she got hurt for no reason there is no way to justify their actions period, ask a rav who is a poseik.”
No one was justifying the spitting and I made that pretty clear in my post. What I did say was the spitting doesn’t justify the Modern Jew’s behavior of flaunting the Not-Tzinus dress in front of their eyes!
“Secondly the real question is do these “Chassidim” who are “so” machmir on kol haTorah Kulah not realize that Chillul Hashem is far greater than the insignificant, and yes the things they are bothered by are meaningless, halachos of tznius, they need someone to remind them of this.”
This is where you prove you are a Kofir. Tzinus, such as covering your hair is meaningless by you. And while spitting at a little kid is a Chillul Hashem -screaming at her mother to dress Tzinus is a Mitzvah.
“Lastly it is important to realize not all Charreidim are like this just the few silly individuals.”
Are you saying it’s a few silly individuals whom spit or are you saying it’s a few silly individuals who care about Tzinus?
If it’s the latter, I would say if you want to consider yourself a Charedi then e/o cares about Tzinus, not just a silly few!
It’s the silly many in Israel and elsewhere who don’t care about Tzinus!
Health, for one there is no need to get all up tight this is just a formal debate. The story said that the girl was WALKING to school, which is located 300 meters away, she was by herself,and if not then I didnt hear the story right, i take back the statement about how “meaningless” it is, but not for one second would I dare to say that its at all worse, or at any level equal to the tremendous chillul hashem, no doubts there, thats what i was reffering to by ask a poseik. Are you a “buki” in hilchos mussar do you know when to give and when not to give, my assumtion, based on what you wrote by “screaming at her mother”, anyone who knows hows to give mussar EFFECTIVLY knows its not done through screaming. Lastly i am almost certain it was quite clear when i stated that its just a silly few, that the word silly is the huge double standard by these “charreidim” who spit yes and create a huge chillul hashem, stop from a moment and realize what every single person who hears this story thinks about Jews, one thing is for sure nothing positive. And no one said that the modern “justify” their actions because of how they are treated, what came first their actions or the spitting so I would venture to say its the chareidim justifying their actions by the dress of the “modern” if you will.
Toit Meshiga!
Nazis YS”V spit at Jews.
I’d like to meet this individual that acts worse than an animal, in a dark alley and leave him with a positive impression of my knuckles as a keepsake.
The huge Chilul Hshm he caused with his false kana’us which equals pure evil and achzarius is chilling.
Any of those insane people who act in this way or similarly are so far from Judaism, if they only knew.
My dear fellow Yidden, Don’t let their garbs fool you!
Yiddishkeit is not the sum of what you wear, but mostly how you behave.
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