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Some people have the minhag to avoid making kiddush between 6 and 7. Among those with the minhag, there are some who switch to avoiding it between 7 and 8 during DST as that is the time frame that would be 6 to 7 if clocks didn’t change.
Personally, I already don’t understand the second camp. In theory, the issue is during the 7th hour after midday, but clock-noon is treated as the “average midday” rather than it shifting every week with zmanim. Furthermore, regions where clock-noon is nowhere near average midday (eg. areas far to one side of a time zone) still observe the minhag from 6 to 7 without adjusting.
Once the minhag departed from being connected to halachic chatzos or even the mathematical average and instead is based on 6 hours after when the clock happens to say 12, why adjust for DST? Why is that different than adjusting for region?
If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?
The minhag has probably sources in astrology, so if you think that our DST affects the stars, your gaavah is above the migdal Bavel and should be a bigger issue for you than davening b’zmano.
“If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?”
Obviously minhagim vary , but most do not shift ” every week with zmanim. ” nor should they ,
they should forever switch to 7-8.
There are a few different Shitos as to how to calculate the 6th hour. Some consider it the first hour of Shabbos, some 6th hour after the actual chatzos of that day. Most (who follow this minhag) do so 6th hour after the average Chatzos .As you allude though average chatzos is not exactly 12 noon since it varies longitudinally. Yes some do adjust for this though in NY it is a slight difference
Astronomical average noon is 12:04 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 6:04 – 7:04 PM EST. during DST , average noon is 1:04 PM DST so the 6th hour is 7:04-8:04 PM which his pretty close to 7-8. In Lakewood its even closer , in Phiidelphia whci his the center of time zone Standard time = EST“as for areas at the far side of a time zone,”
In those cases those who do not adjust for the change from standard time to time zones (I thought people did, some certianly do), harder to understand that approach. I suspect it isnt based on any real shita. I dont know anyone who “holds” this way I think it might be a mistake in which case hard to know what they “should” do since it is anyway probably wrong“If a region switched to permanent DST, would even the second camp concede that the issue would be between 6 and 7, or would they forever switch to 7-8?”
Obviously minhagim vary , but most do not shift ” every week with zmanim. ” nor should they ,
they should forever switch to 7-8.
There are a few different Shitos as to how to calculate the 6th hour. Some consider it the first hour of Shabbos, some 6th hour after the actual chatzos of that day. Most (who follow this minhag) do so 6th hour after the average Chatzos .As you allude though average chatzos is not exactly 12 noon since it varies longitudinally. Yes some do adjust for this though in NY it is a slight difference
Astronomical average noon is 12:04 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 6:04 – 7:04 PM EST. during DST , average noon is 1:04 PM DST so the 6th hour is 7:04-8:04 PM which his pretty close to 7-8. In Lakewood its even closer , in Phiidelphia whci his the center of time zone Mean local time = EST“as for areas at the far side of a time zone,”
In those cases those who do not adjust for the change from mean local time to time zones (I thought people did, some certianly do), harder to understand that approach. I suspect it isnt based on any real shita. I dont know anyone who “holds” this way I think it might be a mistake in which case hard to know what they “should” do since it is anyway probably wrong(other version had mistake, fixed in this verions)
I am not directly familiar with this Minhag (I’ve heard it referenced numerous times and seem to under the impression that it is based on the Rmabam), but wouldn’t it be based solely on Shaos Zmaniyos?
Still mistake in my comment though point still holds
I added instead of subtracted NY is earlier than Phili (more east) not later
Mean solar noon is 11:56 in NYC EST so the 6th hour is 5:56 – 6:56PM EST. during DST , average noon is 12:56 PM DST so the 6th hour is 6:56 – 7:56PMI just discovered a website: 6thhour dot com in whci hcan enter location and it tells you when the 6th hour is
“but wouldn’t it be based solely on Shaos Zmaniyos?”
although there is such an approach I dont think this is standard (for those who follow this minhag) The “rulership” of maazalos dont depend on the the zemanei hayom. Granted I dont understand what this means but comes up in Shas a few times where each mazal has an hour
Asking around I did hear some people say they do 6-7 all year round, maybe it is a “real shita” though I agree with you that it is starange and I’m not sure why they would change for DST
“To be fair, your post has caused me to realize there are more adjusters than I thought.”
And vice versa! I (your post led me to realize there are less than I thought)
“So each community would have to know what the average noon is for their exact longitude?”
this was in last post but worth repeating so you dont miss it:
I just discovered a website: 6thhour dot com in which can enter location and it tells you when the 6th hour isIt is a Magen Avraham O’CH 271,1 says that every hour one of the seven mazalos, rules mercury, venus, earth, mars, jupiter, saturn and neptune. The sixth hour is mars, madim which is not good luck, so we should not make kiddush on Friday night between 6-7.
This minhag accomplishes only one thing: To create unnecessary problems for Jews.
Furthermore, it is wrong to needlessly delay the performance of any mitzvah.
Therefore, you can safely bet everything you own that Jews will NEVER abandon this minhag under ANY circumstances, because more than four decades of experience have repeatedly and consistently shown me that Jews *** LOVE *** minhagim that make no sense and cause unnecessary problems. if you disagree with this statement, then you should try to prove me wrong (you can’t).
===========================================
Shulchan Aruch, Chelek Orach Chaim, Hilchot Shabbat, Siman 271, Sif 1:
When he arrives in his house, he must hurry to eat immediately.
Mishnah Berurah commentary on Sif Katan 1:
…and after he recites Kiddush, he must [start to] eat immediately,
as is taught by the Hagah [Rema] on Siman 273, Sif 3.
And if he does not desire to eat, he is permitted to delay Kiddush until he becomes hungry…In any case, if he has any problem with domestic harmony [Shalom Bayit]
or if he has servants or guests, especially poor guests, he [the Baal HaBayit]
should not delay at all, because they are depending on him….===========================================
“It is proper to recite Kiddush as soon as possible after maariv,
even when one davens [prays] early.”SOURCE: Shulchan Aruch and Shulchan Aruch HaRav quoted in
The Radiance of Shabbos (chapter 6, page 31) by Rabbi Simcha Buni===========================================
Sefer Bris Olam by Rabbi Binyomin Zilber said:
“One should make kiddush promptly after coming home from shul.”
SOURCE: Hakhel Email Community Awareness Bulletin, 2010 February 5
NOTE: Rabbi Binyomin Zilber was a member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah
[Council of Torah Sages] who died at age 91 on September 25, 2008.===========================================
Rabbi Leib Chasman was Mashgiach (spiritual mentor) of the Chevron Yeshivah in the 1930s.
He once had the privilege of being a guest in the home of the Chafetz Chaim for Shabbat.
When Rabbi Leib returned home with the Chafetz Chaim after Kabalat Shabbat and Maariv
he was surprised to see that the Chafetz Chaim immediately made Kiddush, skipping Shalom Aleichem.
Only after eating the fish did the Chafetz Chaim go back and sing Shalom Aleichem.Noticing Rabbi Leib’s confusion, the Chofetz Chaim explained:
“You are a guest in my house, and I could see that you were hungry.
The malachim (angels) are not hungry. They could wait until after I had fulfilled
my obligation of hachnasat orchim (hospitality to guests) by giving you something to eat.”SOURCE: Ateres HaShavua Newsletter, 2007/11/24, http://www.AteresHaShavua.com
Published by Mesivta Ateres Yaakov of Greater Long Island in Hewlett, NY 11557.RebE, right, so mazalos follow halachik shaos, and have nothing to do with DST.
Based on the secular system of counting hours/time or based on the Torah system of counting hours/time?
Square
“Furthermore, it is wrong to needlessly delay the performance of any mitzvah.”
emphasis on “needlessly”
And your post cracked me up.
Ok so theres a magen avraham but hes arguing on a mefarush “hakehl shul community bulletin” who does this guy think he is“Therefore, you can safely bet everything you own that Jews will NEVER abandon this minhag under ANY circumstances,”
Thats a beutiful setment.
True maligim like you arise every so often people wh think they know better and scoff at klaal Yistoel. but even for money Klal yisroel will stand by their mesroa.
Its beautiful to see how crazy it drives youIf we cannot recite Kiddush in the 6th hour because it has a bad mazal,
then we also cannot get married in the 6th hour because it has a bad mazal,
and we also cannot pray in the 6th hour because it has a bad mazal,
and we also cannot conduct business in the 6th hour because it has a bad mazal,
and we also cannot learn Torah in the 6th hour because it has a bad mazal.==============================================
“… every hour one of the seven mazalos, rules:
Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune…”This is Astrology, which is a false superstition copied from non-Jews.
Believing in Astrology is like believing in Santa Claus.Waiting during the 6th hour on Friday night is like waiting for Santa Claus.to come on Xmas.
This minhag is disgraceful, and should have been prohibited many centuries ago.
SR: People *do* avoid the hour for making a Chupa.
You don’t get to argue with the Magen Avrohom or call to abolish his words. You have every right to follow other shittos.
1)The 6th hour isnt always maadim Only shabboos
2) I don’t know about what is fine dutring the hour of bad mazal. wh osays leanring and buisness are problematic, maybe its just starting Shabbos with Kiddish (Fiday night ie Shabbos is the day that STARTS w/ maadim that seems to be the probelm
3) ok so Don’t do those things if you think its a problem. Not sure what your point is.
4) youre disgraceful, yet you’re tolerated here, extend the same courtesy to the Magen Avraham, Its not your cup of tea, gezunderheit don’t follow it
5) “… every hour one of the seven mazalos, rules: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune…” Those arent the maazalos, and I’m not sure about copying from Non-jews but it is a gemara (not the kiddush part) see for example Berachos 59b regarding Birchas hachama as xaplained by Rashi thereNeville, the problem with “secular” midnight is not that it is goyish, but it is not based on any physical event.
Hatzos is defined by the time between sunrise and sunset. As we see with DST, midnight is totally a human convention. For example, if you have two cities nearby in different time zones, as often happens in US when they are in different states – do their mazalos differ by an hour? And whole China is one big time zone – so their 6th hour could be in the middle of the night or day.
So, you are trying to be traditional and follow a minhag and then tie it to a totally artificial convention.
As to the main sugya, it may be that both following and ignoring mazalos have respectable traditions. For example, gemorah has a lot to say about amulets (but provides for an empirical procedure to test their efficacy), while Rambam rejects them. We could apply Pascal’s wager here (if you are an agnostic – not sure that G-d exists, it is less risky to be frum) and follow mazalos, unless you can encounter a large expense, such as paying for an extra hour for the wedding hall. For some, just having their soup cold on Shabbos evening outweighs other considerations.
There is an argument between Ptolemy and Copernicus. Ptolemy says that the earth is the center of the universe whereas Copernicus says that the sun is the center. All seven planets revolve around the center. This rule is based on Ptolemy, the greeks. It is very hard to say that the sun, enormous body revolves around the smaller body, earth and the gravitation of the sun does not pull out the sun from the center. Look at the Rambam how complicated this is.
Eliezer > There is an argument between Ptolemy and Copernicus
There are no winners in this debate. Either you can hold that it does not matter what the center is, or if you think there is a center, you should go to the center of the galactic or to from the place all galactics are moving away from.
> I would recommend you retract what you said about believing in mazalos because it is just flat out denying Torah sh’beksav.
I think he is also on firm ground if he follow Rambam on this.
Rambam in Letter on Astrology: Know, my masters, that it is not proper for a man to accept as trustworthy anything other than one of these three things. The first is a thing for which there is a clear proof deriving from man’s reasoning—such as arithmetic’ geometry, and astronomy. The second is a thing that a man perceives through one of the five senses—such as when he knows with certainty that this is red and this is black and the like through the sight of his eye; or as when he tastes that this is bitter and this is sweet; or as when he feels that this is hot and this is cold; or as when he hears that this sound is clear and this sound is indistinct; or as when he smells that this is a pleasing smell and this is a displeasing smell and the like. The third is a thing that a man receives from the prophets or from the righteous. … something will happen one way and not another, and that the constellation under which one is born will draw him on so that he will be of such and such a kind and so that something will happen to him one way and not another—all those assertions are far from being scientific; they are stupidity. There are lucid, faultless proofs refuting all the roots of those assertions.
…
science of the stars that is genuine science is knowledge of the form of the spheres, their number, their measure, the course they follow, …On all this and the like, the wise men of Greece, Persia, and India wrote compositions. This is an exceedingly glorious science. … How many amazing conditions are made intelligible by this science, all of which is undoubtedly true. It is this calculation of astronomical cycles of which the (Talmudic) sages said that it is wisdom and understanding in the sight of the (Gentile) peoples (Shabbat 75a). But as for these assertions of the stupid astrologers, they are nothing
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