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ari-free > it is sad that instead of being proud of trump for pushing out the vaccines in record time b
I agree. I don’t think the “kooks” fully represent Trump voters. I see in sentiments in other places that
middle America gets it now, saying like “while there are lots of things I did not like about Trump, I liked xxxx”. I wonder whether one of the reasons that people started partying like in roaring 1920s is that Biden is always declaring victory (as Trump also often did), but there is no daily pushback from media and people sense the difference. You may not be watching MSNBC, but you talk to someone who talked to someone who does. Sentiments propagate like viruses.Could you imagine daily headlines if under Trump vaccination rate would fall down like now – it will US falling behind Germany one day, against Spain another day .. instead, they may write “vaccination rates started going up for 2 weeks ago” – when the rates barely moved from 0.17% of population a day to 0.21%, comparing to 1% that many countries sustained for several months.
Or, if Trump would not have an FDA head _candidate_ for 8 months. instead, we are told – it is hard to find someone who is qualified and also wants the job and also is not objected by progressives and by moderates … so, it takes Biden longer to fill a job, than for Trump t develop vaccines. Just think, what would be happening if Delta would have arrived and vaccines would be still in development or waiting for authorization? (FYI – FDA says it started working “24/7” on full authorization in August after Delta arrived – so, they were 8/5 before, I guess)
> please prove that the unvaccinated are infecting others and please prove that the vaccinated are not infecting others.
yes on 1st part:
Israeli just published study – 40 out of 1500 vaccinated medical personnel were infected in 3 months, _ALL_ 40 were infected by unvaccinated, 60% in family (maybe kids?), 40% by patientsno on 2nd:
Provincetown MA July 4 – when locals and visitors went to party like there is no COVID, hundreds of people infected, most vaccinated.So, it seems that when people behave under “new normal”, most transmission is through unvaccinated. If they fully disregard caution and congregate in large crowds, then vaccinated will transmit also.
edited – you should think that the world’s R0 stands at 1.00000
and it is up to you whether it will become 1.00001 (and pandemic will grow) or 0.99999 (and pandemic will eventually stop).Always_Ask_Questions,
“I started looking at this and I need to talk to your mother: you are browsing either Fbook or RT or something like that, despite having filters on Internet!”
Nah, there was a story right here on YWN titled “Mystery in Israel: This is why the 4th wave hasn’t spread in the Chareidi sector”. There was another story about it in the Times of Israel and is fairly easy to Google. And after reading these I checked some of the near real-time data available online in Israel, and it was reasonably consistent with these articles. Good try on the ad hominem fallacy though.
“US research early 2021: reinfections are 15x less than those who were not, that is close to what Pfizer showed in control trials (20x). Caveat – this is for the same variant.”
Caveat number 2: This study was done in early 2021 when the arms were practically still in band-aids. That gives us no information on how long the vaccine induced immunity lasts, which is the shaila now confronting Israel.
“research shows that vaccine produces antibodies that attack more areas of virus than after natural infection, so should be more effective for new variants (Ref 1)
– light cases of COVID provide virus only to the respiratory tract, while vaccine to the muscle, so it may develop a weaker response.”
“Should” and “may” are words of forecast, and forecasts can be verified. It’s still quite early in the game, and I did not write in definitive terms and provided my own caveats, but the recent data from Israel does raise some questions about how long the vaccine induced immunity lasts. But dear me, I keep forgetting that only some people are allowed to “always ask questions” and only certain questions are considered ok to ask.
rightwriter > Why does it make sense in your mind that people should live in a “New Normal” way of life?
This attitude seems to be underlying theme of people who refuse to follow any guidance. Psychologists might be talking about denial, but I think Jews call this “rebels against Hashem”. He sends us a certain reality and we are to respond at our best. People lived through wars, epidemics, pogroms, crusades, recessions, revolutions, and every time, we need to figure out what to do. The position of “Hashem I do not like that interfere with my plans – I have it all figured out: learning zman, summer travel plans, please do not bother me” is untenable.
TMI may be helping to create confusion here: you are quoting one study after another, but it looks like that you simply listen to other people quoting some studies and you are not aware of other studies that were not quoted in your channel. Give the author and title of the study and read it yourself, at least an abstract and a conclusion, and then let’s discuss.
Avram, I agree that the current question is: to what degree immunity by vaccine or disease w/ previous strains are effective against Delta, so old results are not appropriate any more.
Two things to note:
1) growing number of cases now affects everyone who was not vaccinated. I hear again, unfortunately, of people in dire state. You may want to check with people in your circle, esp, anyone over 40 and with any kind of health conditions, whether they are vaccinated. And I would not count on a mild case to provide protection, unless confirmed by recent antibody test.2) it is clear that unvaccinated are threat to vaccinated, and government is not there yet. There are lots of unvaccinated workers in nursing homes and any other facilities for elderly. Check with your relatives and friends where they are. Maybe get them a 3rd vaccine without waiting for CDC.
“2) it is clear that unvaccinated are threat to vaccinated“
What is the “threat”? That they get a cold?
“2) it is clear that unvaccinated are threat to vaccinated“
coffee: What is the “threat”? That they get a cold?
A fair question. Depends on the recipient. The good news for un-vaxed would be that if indeed vaxed people do not transmit much under reasonable conditions, then un-vaxed need to worry “only” about one contact. So, if you are in contact with only healthy young people, then indeed most of them would only get a cold and probably will not transmit to their friends who will transmit to the grandmas … If you are working or davening or in any other pro-longed contact with old or possibly unhealthy people, then they can still get seriously sick.
rightwriter, I agree with you 100%. I wrote a long comment which was not posted, how we can learn from history of not so long ago regarding rights slowly being stripped while people closed their eyes to it until it was too late.
Always ask questions,
“A fair question. Depends on the recipient. The good news for un-vaxed would be that if indeed vaxed people do not transmit much under reasonable conditions, then un-vaxed need to worry “only” about one contact.“
I’m not worried about the unvaxxed they should worry about themselves (if they don’t why should I) which is why Reb eliezer agreed with me (and I said we should make a kiddush) if the unvaxxed want to be safe, take the shot!
I’m not worried about a cold and I don’t worry about people that don’t worry about themselves
I hope I’m clear
rightwriter, you are 100% right. It has always boggled my mind that Jews in Germany were ok with their rights slowly being taken away by Hitler y”s and his henchmen. And then when they couldn’t escape or liquidate heir assets anymore they were pushed into cattle cars to be “relocated” to work camps…and the Jews believed them until the end. The same was with Jews all over Europe after hearing of the Nazis atrocities, they didn’t want to believe what was happening.
And now as more and more of our basic rights are being taken away and people are bullied into submission, foolish people keep on excusing the behaviour of those in power grabbing more and more power and taking away our basic rights and our choices through intimidation, threats and bullying. And now with “infrastructure bill” (+ the next 3.5 trillion dollar bill that’s coming afterwards) they are going even further, wanting to rob us of more rights and money. It’s so clear what is happening, the invading the privacy of our cars, milage taxes and unlimited spending of taxpayer’s money by those in power.
Philosopher – the amount of things you say that are just wrong are simply disturbing.
Very few Jews had the ability to leave Europe. Where could they have gone? The US, Palestine, and other places were all blocked off to but a few.
Your comparing things to a fantasy about what people had the ability to do to make your point that it was somehow all voluntary and that is what is going on today, is simply intellectual dishonest.
How about a different viewpoint. We can have vaccine mandates and restrictions due to COVID without it taking away rights that result in genocide. The very nature of society is giving up some level of personal freedom so we can live together. You want to make slippery slope arguments, then why not say that laws that make drunk driving illegal is risking going full Nazi. There always has to be a balance and suggesting that any specific restriction you don’t like is somehow dangerous is simply disingenuous. Rather, I would suggest the question is, as it pretty much always has been, what as a society do we accept or not. I am fine with vaccine mandates for one.
coffee > I’m not worried about the unvaxxed they should worry about themselves
What is the halakha about this? You don’t have to help the donkey if the owner is not helping, but I think we are still obligated to help our fellow Jews. To what extent? And, as I mentioned, they are a threat to immunocompromised vaxed people, if they come in direct contact with them.
rightwriter > Possibly the Jews in Europe felt that way as well and couldn’t believe something like that could happen in a modern Germany. But it did.
I am with you here. My motto is “if you are paranoid, it does not mean there is no one after you”.
Still, you are not helping everyone to be on a lookout for danger, if you are quoting totally discredited, and even anti-semitic, sources.“What is the halakha about this?
That’s a question for Rabbi Hoffman
“And, as I mentioned, they are a threat to immunocompromised vaxed people, if they come in direct contact with them.”
So they should wear a mask! ( both unvaxxed and immunocompromised)
> what antisemitic source did I quote.
Thai-German Dr
RW, Hashem sent this plague, we need to deal with that and use it as a source of teshuva.
Consider many things that you were doing routinely, now they might have small risk associated with them, so you may want to re-think: should you be going to restaurants as you did before? which asifas are worth attending? which travel is essential? which meetings can be done online? you now have a good excuse to avoid unproductive things you were doing before.
there were a lot of small and large changes in the society, such as local ordinances allowing restaurants to occupy sidewalks, Trump’s enabling Medicare payments for tele-medicine, current Florida decision to allow whole districts to use vouchers to avoid “mask bullying”.
emes nisht sheker, I specifically spoke about the Jews of Germany where the anti-Semitic laws started first and not about Galicia or Poland. Many German Jews forsaw what’s coming, (although they probably couldn’t imagine in their wildest dreams how bad it would be, but they understood that Jews will be targets) and therefore they liquidated their assets and fled the country. There was a possibility of doing that prior to the war but many German Jews were complacent thinking it will blow over, they believed the Germans were cultured and it they never dreamed the Germans would commit such crimes against them. In other parts of Europe, in Hungary for example, the Jewish leadership constantly told the Hungarian Jews that nothing will happen to them and they were misled while they had time to escape. I am not bringing this from my own made-up historical version, I am repeating what I read in history books and Holocaust biographies.
Thank you for this thread, I just noticed it and read through it. I am glad that it wasn’t taken down like all the other platforms that talk ‘blasphemy’ against the vaccine nonsensical plan/campaign/propaganda. Glad this is an open discussion without nivul peh, or name calling. yes there’s tension from both sides but at least there’s this decent human discussion, something that we don’t see much of these days.
“So you are welcoming in this new world for your own ego without even realizing how much it will affect you as well!”
How will it affect us as well?
I already get a yearly flu vaccine (as I recommend you do) So I’ll get yearly covid vaccines too (if indicated) , may be they’ll even be able to combine them? Is that the war on humanity you mention?RW > Fine but what is the solution here long term.
You don’t know what the long term is. Maybe, this or next vaccine will work. Or, the virs, h’V will mutate to worse. Or, maybe one of the evil empire will find a way to weaponize the virus (further).
Address the current problem.RW > Those vaccinated who have such pride and think the unvaccinated should be punished and are promoting this new way of life,
We might naturally evolve into 2 species: one with vaccine, and one with Covid. We can have separate schools, shuls. In US, we can have separate states that can make you safe from all regulations, except the federal ones – and even those can be mostly rescinded by the state. But, please, in the areas where you are a minority. either do not walk among vaccinated or have a sign on you so that others could avoid you.
@rightwriter Hold your horses there Marjorie Taylor-Greene. Last I checked, you’re in a frum forum where Churban Europa comparisons are frowned upon. If you said the same thing in a goyishe forum, you’d probably be called an anti-Semite.
yserbius – I think you missed what he was saying. Although I think it is more ridiculous than anti semetic. I understood him to be saying that people like AAQ have become so entrentched (I am kindly leaving you out of this round 🙂 ) that they are willing to agree to these dangerous “you to the left, we to the right” set ups albeit in the name of covid, but once you are going on that path (which I personally found horrifying and can’t believe you werent calling him out on it) the seperations can take all sorts of “criteria”.
“these dangerous “you to the left, we to the right” set ups ”
We have those set ups all the time. Fast pass ticket holders this way, first class passengers up front, EZ pass only. There is nothing wrong with separating people to the right or the left.
BUT
(in caps, it is a critical distinction)only if it is done by their choice, Differentiating based on Race, gender, etc which hare not choices Like whites to the front, (not to mention the Holocaust), are not remotely similar
I find it appalling that someone on YWN can use phrases such as “-or just wear a yellow JUDE star. Do you see how the problem starts? In your mind you see nothing wrong with this thinking and that’s the danger to humanity.” and ” And once it does get to the extreme situation and people realize, it’s already too late. The Holocaust happened as well and none believed something like that could truly happen. But it didn’t happen overnight, the effort started from 1933 with brainwashing propaganda and in 1939 Jews and others were being sent to their deaths.”
I already mentioned above that the comparison to and the leap to a holocaust is so farcical that it does not deserve a real response.
” driving in the faster lane because you have an ez pass is definitely the same as being allowed to live in a society because you were forced to get a vaccine”
Nope, not the same. But they are much much much more similar than comparing “being allowed to live in a society because you were forced to get a vaccine” to being allowed to live becasue you aren’t Jewish.
jackk – (I hope your point doesn’t lose credibility by my agreeing with it but…) thank you, exactly right.
>> And that means to boycott places which require you show a vaccination card whether you are vaccinated or not.
So, we agree. Please boycott places that require a vaccination card and I hope you will not define us freedom to congregate in such places. Unfortunately, many anti-vax/mask/SD people disregard privacy of others. Now, I can see people without masks and duck anti-SD kissers, but vaccination status is harder to check. Anecdotally, many would lie or ignore recommendations/regulations, or even show fake cards. I am really happy you are not one of those.
@syag-lchochma I’m not as upset at AAQ’s dystopian vision of separate shuls and schools for those who are unvaccinated. Mainly because getting a vaccine is a choice to take on a tiny near-impercievable risk to ones self in order to help others. So while I don’t like the idea of “separate but equal”, I also don’t have a lot of sympathy for those who choose not to help protect their fellow menchen.
maybe we should go to basics on human obligations? Bava Basra – two houses of different height. The one with the higher roof has to build a fence so not to intrude on privacy of the person below him.
So, a person who might be a danger to others has to act, not the one who needs to be protected. You don’t have to take a vaccine. Just distance from vaccinated people, wear a mask, do weekly PCR test, wear a sign that you are not vaccinated, move to remote location, move to states where most pepole are not vaccinating – there are multiple ways you can act – in addition to multiple vaccines from 3-4 different technologies (mRNA, JJ, Novavax, Sinopharm).
Could you indicate which of these paths you are willing to follow to at least some extent? You already indicated that you are willing to avoid places that require vaccination. This is great, I respect that. Just look over the whole list, disengage for a moment from your worries about the whole world, amd analyze what you personally are willing to do.
RW> Are you messing with us or just lack basic comprehension skills? You keep repeating that I said I am willing to avoid vaxpass venues. When did I say that! I clearly wrote (in answer to your question) that both vaccinated and nonvaccinated should boycott these venues who require proof of vaccination in order for things not to get worse.
I understand that you want me to boycott them, but I think your boycott would be sufficient. I hope you do not expect us respecting your desires more than you respect ours.
RW > But since when did masks and vaccines start to work only based on what someone else does!? You are openly admitting that the mask and vaccine is not effective in that case!
Do you really not understand concepts of probability and virus propagation? Each of the tools protect to a certain degree. If you are not careful, you have a chance to pick up the virus and expose others. If you are in a prolong close contact with someone, say live in the same apartment, chances go higher. If someone is not healthy or old, their chances are still high even if they are vaccinated and masked. Say, you are working in a nursing home – would you still not do anything? test? mask?
@rightwriter I’ve said this in previous threads, maybe to you maybe to someone else.
Those who don’t take precautions against COVID (vaccines, social distancing, etc.) are like people speeding on a road. The biggest danger is to themselves (crashing into a wall), the second biggest danger is to others like them (crashing into a speeding car). But they are also endangering those who are trying their best not to speed.
So if a speed limit is impinging on your personal liberties and freedom of choice, then fine! Go to the Great Salt Flats or the German Autobahn or somewhere else where you’re allowed to speed. Otherwise, follow the law and keep other people safe.
@rightwriter COVID-19 is far deadlier than the flu. For one, it’s far more likely for a healthy person to end up in the hospital and/or face long term health problems from COVID-19 than the flu. But more importantly, it’s much much more contagious.
And I am counting natural antibodies. Someone who had COVID already and shows a high number of antibodies in a test is fine and doesn’t need a vaccine. But unless they’re getting tested every two weeks, they will need a vaccine at some point.
right, abtibodies might not work for delta variant, whereas the vaccine does.
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