18 Minute Machine Matzos

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  • #1486625
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is an argument between the Mechaber and the RMA O”CH 447:4
    if there is something called חוזר וניעור once it becomes botel in sixty until night when chometz is not botel anymore because the prohibition falls on the smallest amount. The Mechaber’s view is that we don’t say that, but the RMA differentiates between liquids and solids. So according to this view you cannot rely on bitul and the machine must be cleaned every 18 minutes in order it should not become chometz and reawaken itself at night once it was botel.

    #1486672
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yasher Koach

    #1486962
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I would like to know if people go after 18 minute machine matzos?

    #1488148
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    laskern: The Breur’s kehilla purchase Hadar 18 minute Matzos.

    #1488178
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Breur used to rent Horowitz Margareten factory for a day to bake 18 minute matzos.
    According to the Rambam we should only have cholov yisroel on pesach.

    #2273370
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Please bump.

    #2275740
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Mods, was this bumped?

    #2275817
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, did you mean pas.yisroel? There was no “cholov stam” in the times of the rambam.

    #2275782
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “According to the Rambam we should only have cholov yisroel on pesach…”

    Why be machmir on cholov yisroel on Pesach vs, year-round?? I assume this was not said with reference to somehow baking matzoh with cholov yisroel which makes no sense.

    #2275887
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rambam, Hilchas Chametz Umatzah (4,12) as indicated by the Beer Hagolah 7 there in SA arguing on the Mechaber and RMA by worrying about chozer veniur always.

    #2275884
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    @Avirah

    I assume he is rereferring to the inyan of being mor makpid on kashrus on Pesach than the rest of the year. That it is not considered yuhara to be makpid on things over Pesach that one is not makpid on the rest of the year. Thus he is referring to cholov Yisroel currently.

    #2275919
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a danger of chametz which was botel before Pesach in the milk to revitalize itself on Pesach as explained before. The RMA as it is liquid does not care and the Mechaber does not care at all but the Rambam does.

    #2276064
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Thanks for the explanation.

    On a related topic, are the prices for hand-shmurah coming down this year. Last year I recall $30-$40 was not unusual.

    #2276117
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    How does chometz “revitalize” itself?

    #2276134
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “How does chometz “revitalize” itself?”

    It is said that every year in the weeks before Pesach, Satan and all the Yetzer Horahs come together to conduct an Asifah for Chometz of all types from around the world to provide chizuk and explore new ways to mislead yidden into violating hilchos Pesach. They hold panel discussions on “New Places to Hide”, “When Gebrokts is Nisht Gebrokts” and similar topics that will guide and revitalize the assembled chometz attendees over the coming yom tov.

    #2276139
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Anon, the concept of chozer v’niur goes as follows:

    When something is batul, nullified, in a mixture, this can happen through having 60x the volume of the nullified item, or the majority, depending on the case. Sometimes you need 100x..

    Typically, the concept of chozer veniur means that if there was enough to nullify the item, but then more of its own substance was added, the material that was previously nullified is counted with the new stuff.

    For instance, a pot has 122 ounces of chicken, and one ounce of chazir falls in. No problem, because you have 60x the chazir. But what happens if subsequently, 2 more ounces of chazir fall in – each one by itself would be batul, but when you add them together, you get 3 ounces, which would require 180 ounces of chicken to nullify. Do we say that what’s done is done, and the first ounce is as if it’s not there anymore, or do we say it is “revitalized” by the additional ounces.

    That’s chozer veniur.

    Reb E is saying that if the chometz was batul before pesach, do we say chozer veniur because now there’s a new issur that previously was not there, one which is not subject to bitul, as chometz on pesach is never batul, even in a mixture of 10000x itself. Do we say that the chometz should be looked at as gone completely, since it was batul before pesach, or do we say to look at it as still existing, and subject to the current judgement of not being batul no matter how much there is against it.

    #2276141
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Dorah,

    If you want to let everyone know that you are clearly clueless on a halachic concept, just say you don’t know. There is no reason to try to make light of serious halachic concepts.

    #2276154
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Maybe it is the argument in Shutei Mekubetzes in ;Bava Metzia if rov is a birer or a safek. If rov is a birer when botel it is mutar and the issur disappears whereas if it safek , the issur is still there but the Torah is matir it.

    #2276192
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, i disagree; we need shishim when there’s taste. That’s nothing to do with rov anymore; rov is used when it’s min bmino

    #2276225
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Avira, I appreciate the explanation but how did the chametz get into the milk? From the cow or the carton ?

    #2276303
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    They suppose stop feeding the cow chametz before Pesach.

    #2276308
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Yalkut Hagershini explains Rabbi Yehuda’s shita baderech mussar, min beshaino mina botel bashishim min bamina afilu baelef lo botel. If one does aveiros lateiovan, desire, when sixty years old. one gives it up but when done from minus, lack of belief, even one lives a thousand years will not change.

    #2276309
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, it seems you are right, rov would not need sixty but taste does.

    #2276315
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Isn’t our shaila of chametz and matzah min bemino?

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