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just to make it clear in a separate post, pigskin is halachically edible based on a mishna. pork rinds are treif gamur.
yitayningwut , I was just addressing this thought from Sam2, in case someone wasn’t following my long cut-paste post:
I would assume though that skin is inherently inedible and that we would just say Achsh’vei by skin eaten in certain ways. Who knows? Maybe pork rinds are actually Kosher? That would be an interesting thing to think about
And thank you for the incentive to dust off the old Taaruvos. Brought back some memories.
Jothar: I seem to be blanking terribly. Where is this Mishna?
haor vharotev in chulin
Yitay hatzlacha rabbah tommorow.
mevatel issur lechatchila- I believe the shach allows lach belach.
fatty and lean meat- Not sure where, but a long shach, taz, nekudos hakesef, taz mahadura tinyana on it.
Gelatin-
Reb chaim Ozer was one of the mattirim, along with Rav Yechezkel Abramsky. Feel free to read thru is and summarize the key points for us baalei battim, especially if he clarifies if dry bones or even wet marrow-filled bones, length of time for processing, and any indications if pig skin would be different or if he would agree to the yabia omer.
Sam2, this is literally what they call toeh bedvar mishnah. BTW ohr veharoteiv is one of my favorite perek names in shas- “skin and sauce”. Still not sure what the hava amina was- if everyone eats it as a snack, it’s clearly not achshevei. Leather boots are only eaten in cases of seige, but people WANT to eat pork rinds- it’s a booming business. clearly food.
And even in a brisker lu yitzur world that the pig skin itself was muttar (which it’s NOT, the cracklins are fried in lard.
Jothar: I was clearly just asking. I never claimed to know anything about Ha’or Veharotev. I used a maybe and a question mark because it was an entirely facetious theoretical question. I wasn’t To’eh because I didn’t state anything. I asked the question and received an answer.
it might have a nice name but for all daf yomi doers, we know it is from the hardest perakim
it’s on daf 122a in maseches chullin.
How appropo. It was actually the Daf for Daf Yomi two days ago. Oops. I guess I don’t learn Daf Yomi. And Jothar, I don’t see anything of the sort on that Daf.
mishna in the middle of the page- eilu she’oroseihen kebsaram- ohr ha’adam ve’or chazir shel yishuv.
Jothar: So it is. I was looking at 124. My bad. I thought I made the change in e-daf but apparently not. Though that Mishnah is interesting. That would seem to only still apply to skin that is close to edible on its own. I wonder if making the skin edible involved some really heavy processing would still be Treif. This Mishnah doesn’t go against that.
google cracklins.
My pleasure. When I learned Issur V’Heter and was asked a shaila, it greatly enhanced my understanding of the halacha, and that one needs to know ALL of Basar B’Chalav and Taaruvos to arrive at the correct halacha.
Slightly off topic, but I’m wondering why grape juice has to be mevushal. Isn’t it yayin m’gito?
Yitay: Isn’t there a case in the S”A about grinding up infested wheat into flour that it’s okay because you’re not Mechaven to be Mevatel?
yitay: not so fast on the retraction. I will try to post later today a number of sources who are lenient for ein kavano l’vatel even when there is no safek.
Yitay: the Terumas HaDeshen, as you certainly know mentioned two different reasons to permit grinding the infested wheat, Safek and Ein Kavanaso. The question is; does he require both factors, or either one is sufficient?
This Halacha was quoted in Shulchan Aruch 84:14. In Seif 13 the Shulchan Aruch cites the Orchos Chaim that one may heat honey to liquefy it to filter out pieces of the bees. The reason given is because even though inevitably he will be Maflit bee flavor into the honey and make it Batel, this is not his intention. He permits it even though the bees are visible and certainly present. This would appear to be a clear indication that Ein Kavanaso alone is Muttar, even without a Safek.
Some Achronim (Nachlas Tzvi, Divrei Malkiel and others) understand that the accomplishment of Ein Kavanaso is that previously his Bitul was a Psik Reisha, and this makes it Lo Nicha Lei. This should be enough to permit independently.
It should be straightforward in the Terumas HaDeshen that if the Safek consideration is sufficient alone, then Ein Kavanaso should operate independently as well.
Yitay: I’m looking for a good halacha chabura. You seem to realy know your stuff. Please let me know of a good chabura I could join. Thanks. And if anyone else out there has any suggestions I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
yitay:
1 Psik Reisha is only a heter for the action of being mevatel, it will not make something batel that would not have been otherwise
3 so how does he understnd the Terumas HaDeshen? if safek alone is enough why mention Ein Kavanaso, unless it is also sufficient alone.
yitay: 1) not batel miD’Rabbanan is NOT Batel. Psik Reisha will only take off the Knas for transgressing Ein Mevatlin, not the Gezeira of Berya.
3) OK, that’s a valid opinion. However, I pointed out before that a preponderence of Poskim hold otherwise. Since when is Rav Abadi MACHMIR for a minority opinion?
Yitay: the Pri Chadash OC also writes the same chiluk as RAE (Shut 77) and your Rav.
The Divrei Malkiel you expressed interest in who mentioned Psik Reisha is 2:42 and 43
Which Rashba does he understand supports his Psak?
Yitay: I’m looking to learn issur v’heter. Lakewood would be fine. Do you know of a specific chabura? It is important that the rosh chabura be a qualified posek. BTW are you a talmid of Rav Abadi? I had a shaychus with him years ago. Can’t say I’m a talmid but I appreciate his halachic expertise. If you don’t want to give info here we could probably work something out with the mods and I’ll contact you directly. Thanks.
Mods please send yitayningwut’s email to my email that is on file with you, as per his instructions above. Thank you very much.
yitay: 1) “Are you saying that the rabbanan somehow make it that now it’s assur mid’oraisa?”
of course not, I don’t know how you could have read that into what I wrote. My point is “Psik Reisha will only take off the Knas for transgressing Ein Mevatlin, not the Gezeira of Berya”
yitay: “The Rashba is in Volume 1 Teshuva 495”
Yitay: To borrow from the Rashba you mentioned ?? ??? ?? ???????.
Furthermore, even if you will insist that the Rashba is describing a general definition of Ein Kavanaso, then his ruling is incompatible with the Terumas HaDeshen cited in SA YD 84 and many other cases I quoted previously from SA and other Poskim. So even if this would be the intention of the Rashba, which I still highly doubt, there is no reason to assume it is the accepted Halacha.
Is the worms in a bottle of tequila considered nosein taam lifgam, or since it’s meant to be there its leshevach?
yitay: The Rema says that with beer and vinegar one should be machmir and assume bugs and the like are nosen ta’am lishvach.
Thanks. What siman is this in? I would like to know what the S”A holds, being that I am sefardic.
Yitay: Thanks. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is no machlokeis between them, rather the S”A left it out in 104:3 and only brought it down in the B”Y beshem HaRashba, however the S”A will agree that chala and shichra are more stringent. I only saw the Kaf Hachayim because thats all I have available, and it seems that he doesn’t differentiate for Sfardim.
I have a hard time understanding certain aspects the issur of Ein Mevatlin by Bosser BeCholov. In a case where the meat wasn’t cooked yet with the milk, there is no issur that was created yet that has to be mevutal. So I wonder how in this case, where there is no intention to pour the milk on the meat, why would stirring it to save it from creating issur, cause an issue of ein mevatlin? Certainly I would argue that this is not a case of lekatchila being mevatel.
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