רודף vs. גואל הדם

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  • #2307943
    toonaphish
    Participant

    It is well-known that if you see someone trying to kill another, you have a mitzvah to kill the רודף – the potential murderer – to save the other fellow.
    We also know that when one kills by accident, the גואל הדם – a relative of the dead fellow – has the full right to kill this accidental murderer until he reaches the Ir Miklat.
    So if I see one fellow chasing another to kill him, how am I supposed to know if the chaser is a רודף, and I’m supposed to try to take him down, – or if he’s a גואל הדם and is justified in attempting to kill the one he’s chasing???

    #2308013
    ujm
    Participant

    The גואל הדם only has the right to revenge after Beis Din ruled so. Thus, it would be known in advance who was an accidental killer that is subject to revenge and who the relatives are.

    #2308209
    Redleg
    Participant

    On the principle that even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, Joseph is right on this one. The action of a Goel HaDam isn’t just Mafia style revenge. On individual is designated Goel and, basically, is issued a “license to kill” by the Beis Din.

    #2308250

    I think it would be up to גואל הדם to make sure nobody shoots him first. Put a peace flag on his machine gun.

    #2308351
    ujm
    Participant

    Beis Din protects the accidental killer from the time they declare he is subject to a revenge killing by the גואל הדם until the time Beis Din successfully gets him to an Ir Miklat.

    Also, even when the גואל הדם has the right to kill the the killer, and finds an opportunity to do so (outside the Arei Miklat), the killer has the right to defend himself by killing the גואל הדם in order to prevent the גואל הדם from his immediate attempt at killing him.

    #2308604
    Redleg
    Participant

    If the shogeig defends himself and kills the goel, is that legitimate self-defense or is he culpable for another killing?

    #2309047
    Bayit Beitar
    Participant

    I think a more interesting question is: Is it moral and ethical to have a society where instead of court ordered justice to be handled by the authority , instead the court justifies family honor killing. Is removing an accidental murderer from society a צדק / משפט issue or giving into the יצר הרע desire for vengeance…

    #2309192
    ujm
    Participant

    Bayit: Everything the Torah says is, by definition, moral and ethical.

    #2309267
    Redleg
    Participant

    Bayr, as stated above, this is not a simple vendetta killing. The killing of the Shogeig is sectioned and ordered by the Beis Din.

    #2309615
    toonaphish
    Participant

    Good tirutzim, thank you.
    Though what if the רוצח sneaks out of the Ir Miklat 25 years later, the גואל הדם still needs to shlep him to Beis Din before killing him?
    I suppose the underlying question is, how does anyone know if a רודף has a legitimate reason to kill or not, or does it not make a difference? Maybe the רודף is actually chasing another רודף?

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