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Who is worse, a ???? ??????? or an Orthoprax?
Who is worse, a ???? ??????? or an Orthoprax?
Who is worse, a Gerer Chossid who follows his Commandant over the wishes of his wife, or someone who eats cheeseburgers?
Who is worse, Neturei Karta or Open Orthodox?
Who is worse, someone who steals from the government or someone who consistently misses Zman Kriyas Shema?
Who is worse, someone who convinces others not to vaccinate, or someone who convinces others to go to college?
🙂
Move for the thread to be deleted.
(and I’m still wondering how it got approved)
Not for you, I already know all your answers!
Joseph: I can hear both sides for all of the others, but I don’t understand your answer to #3.
Joseph: Wrong. The other side for #3 is numerous Issurei D’Oraisa.
A mumar l’teiovin actually does an aveiroh. He likes veal parmigian. He eats it, not to go against Hashem, but because he likes it. But he is still doing an aveiroh. The Orthoprax doesn’t necessarily do aveiros. He just doesn’t really care much about the practice of Torah life.
Theprof1, does he believe in Hashem and Torah min hashomayim and s’char v’onesh?
Which issurei d’oraisa apply to not feeding the meter when parking.
1: Assumes not paying is stealing
2: Assumes Dina D’Malchusa would apply
3: Assumes we are discussing feeding the meter
Depending on how the law is formulated, parking without paying may constitute theft, ?????? ???”? ????? ?????????.
In any case the question was specifically about stealing from the government, not any other way of breaking the law.
gavra: How is not putting money in the meter different halachicly than not sending money to the IRS?
Who says it isn’t? I’m not enough of a rabbinical contortionist to disprove one way or the other. After all, where there is a rabbinic will, there is a halachic way to obtain Gelt 🙁
Clear examples of “Stealing” from the government would be taking benefits where one is not eligible (e.g. due to money earned off the books). Another example is taking government funding that is earmarked for a specific purpose and using it for something else (for example, E-rate).
I said “stealing”. If you don’t consider the action “stealing”, then think of a different action.
It’s Gneivah from lots of people, Oshek, a Chillul Hashem if done by a company, and potentially others.
Its probably easier to get caught not putting money in the meter than cheating the IRS
‘Clear examples of “Stealing” from the government would be taking benefits where one is not eligible (e.g. due to money earned off the books).’
Back when I served on a federal grand jury we indicted someone for doing that. If convicted that person was going to have an extended period of free room and board.
I am told that cheeseburgers taste good. I would not know personally as I have never eaten one myself.
It is not a crime to fail to put money in the parking meter.
But you may end up paying a lot more in fines. In my neighborhood the chances of getting caught approach 100%.
Joe – Your opinion was a foregone conclusion before the thread started. You can ask your LOR (if that isn’t yourself) if you have any questions.
Can we conclude that an Orthoprax is closer to a ???? ?????? than to a ???? ????????
How can an Orthoprax who doesn’t believe in God possibly be a ???? ???????
The Wolf
How can an Orthoprax who doesn’t believe in God possibly be a ???? ???????
Agreed. He’s a ????, though, so still worse.
And what is your conclusion on the question?
That it is God’s Decision, not mine to make.
Joe – Interesting you bring that up. I don’t see you actually doing anything the CC says you should be doing. Where are you outing and embarrassing Orthoprax (or known Kofrim)?
Emor Harbei, V’Aseh Miyat.
I don’t know what the orthoprax really believes. I just read an article about a guy who is OTD, and has conversations with God often, with the topic of being extremely angry at God that he doesn’t exist. It is Pashut to me that this person is a Maamin in ways that unfortunately most Religious people are not.
You call that being ??????
Gaw, if it’s any comfort, you’re not the first person to mistake someone in need of medication for a ma’amin (or a prophet).
And what is your conclusion on the question?
I would have thought that would be obvious. You can’t intend to make angry that which you don’t believe exists.
The Wolf
Wolf, which question are you referring to?
Wolf, which question are you referring to?
I asked:
How can an Orthoprax who doesn’t believe in God possibly be a ???? ???????
and Joseph responded with*:
And what is your conclusion on the question?
and so I responded with:
I would have thought that would be obvious. You can’t intend to make angry that which you don’t believe exists.
The Wolf
* Granted, he might not have been speaking to me, but his post was directly under mine, so, without any further indications, I have to at least consider the possibility that he was addressing me. For the record, this is why I always quote what I am responding to.
“???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ – ????: “???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”.
??????- “???????? ???? ????? ?????… ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???…”
Hilchos Rechilus 9:15
???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???????, ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????
Do you disagree with the Chofetz Chaim? The CC says you should judge an apikorus.
Do you disagree with the Chofetz Chaim? I think you do.
You’ve known, *for years* that I hold positions that many frum people (yourself included) would view as apikorsus. And for years, you’ve been trotting out this statement of the CC’s. And yet, you have not sought to publicly embarrass me, judge me or degrade me, as the Chofetz Chaim commands.
So, sir, I am calling you out on this. I don’t think you truly believe or wish to observe this command of the Chofetz Chaim as you have failed, for years, to observe it.
So, in essence, I’m asking you to put up or shut up. Either observe his command and embarrass me and degrade me as per the command, or stop bringing it up.
The Wolf
I can’t think of any positions you hold that are apikorsus.
For starters, I’m not a Young Earth Creationist. I believe that would put me outside the pale for you and many others.
The Wolf
Wolf, specifically regarding that position, Rav Elyashev stated that while that position is apikorsus, the subscriber of that position is not necessarily personally an apikorus. If I recall correctly I think his reason was because the subscriber mistakenly, but sincerely, thinks its a halachicly legitimate position to hold.
So, you’re going to weasel out of it by saying that as long as the apikorus beleives his apikorsus, then all is well as we can welcome him? I don’t believe that normative halacha views the matter that way.
The Wolf
When did Rav Elyashiv say that not being a young Earth creationist is apikorsus?
As an aside, the whole idea of ikarrim according to the Brisker Rav is that for these beliefs being mistaken doesn’t help, nebach an apikorus is ocheit an apikorus.
I can’t imagine that Rav Elyashiv held that the age of the Earth is one of the ikkarei emunah (none of the Rishonim that I know of include it or anything like it). So not having a mistaken belief about it would not be apikorsus, it would just be a mistake.
I think the idea that the Dinosaurs died in the mabul is a christian idea
Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense.
Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense.
Agreed. Makes it more like “we don’t want the unwashed masses to know there are other, valid opinions”, but those opinions are not Apikorsus.
That isn’t an accurate summary, gavra. The keywords were the halacha is not like them.
I saw that, and still read it the same way, that it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to disagree and hold the other way.
Men.
The problem is you all think you’re so smart.
“They were permitted to say these things, but we may not.”
It may just be a good idea to accept the fact that we are just ants or amoebae compare to the Giants who have preceded us. And there might be a few things, especially in areas like Brias Ha’Olam, that we can’t, with our limited intellect, fully comprehend.
We can go ahead and give praise that He is Mechadesh Be’Tuvo Bechol Yom Ma’aseh Beraishis, without having a perfectly clear vision of exactly what that entails.
Safer.
And smarter.
If you’re willing to live dangerously and use garbage bags with food, why be so cautious?
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