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yekke2 –
Yes, but the point here (more than just what I said in my long megilla above) is that your argument is not intellectually honest. Besides, of course the Talmud is a valid source of proof for him. Since you accept the validity of the Talmud, if he is trying to prove that a concept fits in to your belief system, a proof from the Talmud is certainly valid.
HaKatan –
I don’t know why you are calling this pshat in the Gemara in Sukkah anything less than objective. It is the obvious, clear understanding of it, and the fact that the Maharsha says another pshat doesn’t change that. Regardless of whether you think the pashut pshat fits with the mainstream Yiddishe Hashkafa, it would be intellectually dishonest to say that such an understanding of the Gemara is “twisted.”
I forget where I read this, but even the Vatican was modeh (again, I forget to whom), that the accounts in their “New Testament” were essentially for hisorerus/illustration purposes and are not factual accounts, which means even they agree that there was no Immaculate Conception nor Virgin Birth, etc.
I would assume your average Christian and even your typical minister does not know this, despite the numerous raayos that those stories could never have happened.
But that’s okay, and besides the point, because they can believe whatever they want.
But the point is that our Torah is NOT any basis for, lihavdil, their beliefs.
yitay: I’m surprised that they haven’t too, but the couple times I’ve used it they’ve either never heard the pasuk and I had to show it to them or they retreated to the idea that once their Messiah was born (or declared himself, or whatever) everything in the “Old Testament” is optional because his existence “fulfills” something or other.
It is not obvious, clear, nor objective.
A gemara, which is a snippet of recorded notes, must be taken in context and with the proper understanding, and is not intended to be read with an existing agenda in mind, but rather learned properly so as to understand what the holy sages meant in those notes.
Twisting a gemara, that could vaguely resemble something they believe in, is not impressive in the slightest because, here, too, the meaning is anyways different and clearly not that way, as I wrote in my post.
There are plenty of other gemaras, too, that, amusingly, people get all worked up over when they read the simple English translation, only to find out how foolish they are when they understand what the gemara actually means (if they care to find out).
Again, you can make a similar mistake from a cursory and non-intellectual reading of the Akeidah. But human sacrifice is obviously never condoned, unlike what one could decide to take from the akeidah.
But, again, I would leave it to talmidei chachamim.
Hakatan- you can’t say that christianity is false because it contradicts our ikkrim. ikkrim where only written down in the middle ages, and with much disagreement about them.
Don’t be naive, their religion might be based on twisting and fraud.
However they do have learned men that can show you proof.
Unless you are not really familiar with their entire beliefs and logic, refrain from debating them.
Same goes with atheists. Once you know their theories inside out, you will have an easy job exposing their falsehood. Untill then don’t debate them.
Take a leaf from Bereshis: Specifically Ch. 3:13-14. The snake stands accused by Chava. Hashem doesn’t ask any questions of the snake. He just pronounces the sentence. Lesson: Not everyone we meet is appropriate to debate. Parents should be teaching there kids that when you meet a missionary you get away as fast as possible. You don’t sit there and argue. You don’t debate them. By debating them you legitimize them. Just get away! (And when you’re at a safe distance learn something, like a Mishnah.)
“YehudahTzvi – One who raises a child is as if he bore him. The meforshim say this on countless occasions, even in places where the Torah uses terms like ??. See, for example, Ibn Ezra to Bereishis 46:7. “
So if I adopt a Yisroel kid he can duchan? I don’t think so. Yichus, and thus Ben David is genetic.
“Missionaries are people, too, of course, and I’m sure Hashem is not looking for His creations to be in tears. IF they are evil then that is a different matter, but if they’re just naive or ill-informed gentiles, I see no reason to make them feel bad, even though you have to personally reject their ideas for Jews. “
Could not disagree more. This is war. They are a sakana to the Jewish Nation and trying to lead us astray into idol worship. I tell them that a curse will fall on them for every Jew they disturb. They need to know that Jews are not soft targets.
From Rabbi Mechanics tapes;
All you have to ask them is the following: they do believe the Jews received the Torah at Har Sinai they do. And they believe that GD changed his mind and chose yoshka to be the leader. They also believe that GD is almighty and can do anything they also believe that GDs actions are most perfect. It hey also believe that
GD gave the Torah in front of 3,000,000 Jews.
If so, the. Mr missionary what would be the most perfect way of GD telling the news there’s a new leader? Aha in front of all of them like he did back then and he can do it because he’s almighty and it’s logical too.
But you mr missionary believe that GD whispered in yoshkas ear , psst! Hey go convince everyone that you’re the new leader.
Reduculous! Have a nice day.
Matan1, I didn’t say Christianity is false because it contradicts our ikkrim. There were 3 separate points.
1. Christianity cannot be derived from, and is incompatible with, our Torah.
2. The Torah expressly forbids believing in just anyone just because they perform osos, if they are leading you astray.
3. Kabbalah is not forbidden by the Torah.
YehudahTzvi, I’m not convinced that making them cry will make them leave Jews alone, especially if they are not malicious. Again, ask your LOR.
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