Last week Yeshivaworld posted an article concerning the “teens at risk” in the Catskills. Rabbi Yakov Horowitz has written another article and asked Yeshivaworld to post it:
Last week, I ran a column entitled, “It’s One A.M. – Do You Know Where Your Children Are?” describing the “scene” in and around the pool hall in Monticello, New York, where hundreds of unsupervised teenage boys and girls were hanging out, drinking, and using drugs. There, I noted that some of the kids in the pool hall said that they and their friends rented bungalows in non-Jewish colonies or motel rooms throughout the Catskills where they regularly party from Thursday night until Monday morning – including Shabbos.
If I needed validation that things were as described, it came in the form of a published article in The Middletown Record, the newspaper serving the Catskill Mountain area, the very day that The Jewish Press hit the newsstands.
Five arrested after cops break up South Fallsburg party
August 01, 2007
South Fallsburg – Police arrested five men over the weekend after getting complaints about a house where kids were being served alcohol and people were smoking marijuana.
Fallsburg police got the calls Saturday night, and between 9 and 10 p.m. they went to the address on Laurel Avenue in South Fallsburg. Police say they broke up a large party at the house and arrested five males, all between the ages of 17 and 21. Police said that those arrested were among the oldest people at the party, and some of them had supplied the alcohol to the younger partyers. Police said the partygoers were summer residents.
The five men were freed pending appearances in Fallsburg Town Court. (emphasis mine.)
Those arrested were all frum kids from Brooklyn and Monsey, and their names were published in accounts of the arrests in other newspapers. (FYI; Shabbos ended well after 9 p.m. that week, so if the police got calls, responded, arrived, “between 9 and 10 p.m.” and found at that time “a large party,” – well, you do the math.)
So, I guess you are wondering how things turned out this past Motzoei Shabbos?
Well, I am pleased to report that things were far better the previous weekend – in no small part due to the awareness generated by the dissemination of the column. Countless parents whose teens are spending the summer in the Catskills shared copies of the column with each other in printed and email formats. I know of several bungalow colonies where the article was clipped from the paper and posted on the shul’s bulletin board. Popular frum bloggers wrote essays about the issue last Wednesday and more than 1,100 people reviewed the article on my website alone – not counting those who forwarded it to their email lists.
Additionally, concrete steps were taken to improve things on the ground. Quite a few bungalow colony owners called staff meetings with their day-camp counselors and initiated curfews for those traveling off grounds on Motzoei Shabbos. A Brooklyn Rav and his lay leaders made arrangements with the pool hall owner in Monticello to have its use limited to boys after midnight. He also rented Liberty Lanes, a popular bowling alley in Liberty, New York, for the exclusive use of girls. The Rav arranged for adult supervision in both locations and provided homebound transportation for the girls after their time in the bowling alley. (It is interesting to note that the number of boys in the pool hall was similar to that of the previous week, but there were far fewer girls out and around this past Motzoei Shabbos. And those girls who were at Liberty Lanes repeatedly thanked the adults present for providing them with a risk-free enjoyable venue where they won’t “get in trouble.”)
As I see things, there are several important take-away lessons to be learned from this evolving episode:
To begin with, awareness matters. As difficult as it is for us to write and publish columns of this nature, it is really the only way to generate the type of awareness that allows parents and community leaders to proactively respond to the challenges we collectively face.
Additionally, we need not throw up our hands and feel resigned to accept things as they are. We must feel empowered to parent our children effectively and set limits for them that will keep them safe – and alive. We also need to get behind the efforts of the rabbis and lay leaders who are working to help save our children – with our time and our financial resources.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we should resist the seductive route of merely ‘banning’ places and activities for our growing teen population. It is entirely appropriate to declare certain areas off limits for our children. But if we do not create healthy, safe, and enjoyable venues for our children, we are deluding ourselves into thinking that we have solved the problems and are setting the stage for far greater challenges later on.
Ten years ago, we ‘banned’ Woodbourne, for some very good reasons. There were pronouncements in a variety of Jewish publications forbidding our children from appearing in Woodbourne on Motzoei Shabbos. There was also a concerted effort made by Hatzolah leadership and camp directors to limit the driving of teenagers who spend their summers in camps and bungalow colonies. These initiatives were effective in taming the environment in Woodbourne and reducing the number of horrific car crashes. What we have not done, however, is really address the core causes that are driving so many of our young men and woman to the fringes of our society. Nor have we been creating enough supervised, appropriate venues for our children (including mainstream ones) to spend their free time.
Our disenfranchised kids, some of whom may not be that book smart and academically gifted, figured out the “new math” pretty quickly.
Woodbourne, no. Monticello, yes.
Frum pizza shops, no. Non-Jewish pool halls, yes.
Public areas, no. Motels and apartments in non-Jewish neighborhoods, yes.
Somehow, that doesn’t add up to me.
© 2007 Rabbi Yakov Horowitz. (Website)
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73 Responses
Ya, Ya, suddenly everybody is an expert at teens at risk
1, I found that comment a bit offensive as Rabbi Yakov Horowitz is a renowned expert and activist on behalf of teens at risk. And what do you suggest, that everyone should just sit back and say “I’m not an expert so I won’t do anything”? Kol Hakavod to all the askonim that are working tirelessly to help our fellow brothers, sisters and children!
Middle of Nostrand: Dumb Comment – Rav Horowitz is one the biggest experts out there and has helped countless kids, parents, sholom bayis caused by TAR and siblings abound. you should never have to need to call him and you should try on your own soemhow to help him.
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Thumbs up.
it is a very big yesod to show kids that you can have a lot of fun without doing any aveiros.
What I agree with in particular in the article is the part about the knee-jerk response of “banning” anything and everything. I wonder when Rabbi Horowitz’s (correct) conclusion on the uselesness of this practice will spread here to Israel?
An Israeli Yid
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This is nothing new…tenns are obviously lacking something basic we need to give over – (what I think)the warmth and love that should come from yidishkeit..there has to be a better trade off for all of this, something better for them to give up all of this “fun”..
I read many of the comments on this site and on R’ Horowitz’s site last week.
Here what I boil it down to.
Our Yeshivos are teaching our kids that:
-Eating Treif is bad. Don’t eat treif or you will be expelled from school.
-Being Mechalel Shabbos is bad. If you’re Mechalel Shabbos, you we will be expelled.
-Doing drugs is bad. If you do drugs, you will be expelled. (And your brain will resemble a fried egg.)
-Talking to girls is bad. Talk to a girl and you’ll be expelled.
-Going to any movie is bad. Go to the movies and you’ll get expelled.
You all see where I am going here. Teens see no difference between eating trief and talking (yes, just talking) to a girl. So, what’s the difference between seeing a movie and being Mechalel Shabbos? Nothing! Same punishment, so why not really enjoy myself…?
Within the framework of Torah and Halacha, various offences have varying degrees, and styles, of punishment. The ‘worse’ the offense, the harsher the punishment.
I tend to think that Chazal in creating this system understood what they were doing – educating the masses between right and wrong, and the varying degrees therein. Thereby allowing people to learn critical thinking and reasoning.
Those same Chazal created ‘gedorim’ (fences) to guard us from coming to close to the actual Issur. But that is the beauty of Halacha, it teaches us the actual issur and how the ‘geder’ works, so we can learn and understand how to reason on our own, and how to figure out things that may not be written in an actual sefer.
Our current system is quick to ‘Assur’ everything and allow kids no opportunity to learn intelligent reasoning and critical thinking.. That’s where our problem lies. Fix it and half the problem will disappear.
IsraeliYid,
Rabbi Howowitz did NOT call the banning of certain places (i.e. Woodbourne on Motzei Shabbos) as “knee-jerk.” In fact he said the bans were implemented for “for some very good reasons.”
He indicates that banning improper activities and/or places is insufficient on its own. It must be accompanied with productive alternatives for teenagers. As well as addressing the causes for people going to the fringes.
Hoping the turnaround will continue the next few sat. nites, awareness is #1 to cure any ailment physical, mental or emotional. Thanks Reb Yaakov for taking the initative.
Ani Tapuach and Co.
Chas Veshalom, that comment was not directed at R’ Horowitz Shlita. He is doing the work that no one else has the guts to do. My comment was directed to all the people that think they know better. I was in a rush and was very brief in the comment. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Although I appreciate the accomplishments due to the publishing of these articles, I fear that it might have also helped many teens go the wrong way.
Do you know how many teens, boys and girls, that you can call ‘borderline’, or perhaps a bit over the border that were instantly educated by this article? Until now, they are to themselves, maybe doing chats and garbage on the net. Now they know how [and where] to do it -live-. Plus there are sooo many others doing it! (I am talking about kids under 19 that kept their garbage private and were afraid to ‘do it’ in the real world. -Until now-)
-confused and afraid, shlepper.
would like to add that no girls were allowed into the pool place in monticello also a correction that this past motzie shabbos not liberty lanes but Kaimesha has been rented for the girls.. hope you all have a great summer
Mr. Shleper you’re not only wrong, you’re uneducated in the “jewish teen” world. How many teens do you know, are sitting at home on any given Motzei Shaboss wanting to do something but dont know what to do and where to go? uuuuuuuuuuuhhh
That’s right ,,none zilch,,every kid who wants the action knows where and when to go. FACT!
Part 2.
Now if you’re gonna tell me that there are alot of them out there, “waiting for SOMETHING to happen” Question for you.
HOW MANY OF THEM ARE HERE ON YW?
LETS SAY THERE ARE 25 ONLINE HERE WITH US, A BIG NUMBER, I’M GIVING YOU SOME LE WAY,
OK
ITS 25 VERSUS 300 GETTING HELPED
WHAT WHEIGHS MORE 25 OR 300
Chaim Yankel,
There are very good reasons Yeshivos assur bochurim from talking to girls. It must be that way, and it will remain like that.
Oh good grief. Bans and curfews don’t reduce the desire to do the stuff, they just limit its availability.
The thing to do is make it less desirable. When will people learn that say “No” only works until the kid doesn’t have to listen anymore?
CHAIM YANKEL,
RECENTLY AS MY ELUL KABALA, I DECIDED TO START BEING DUN L’KAF ZECHUS IN A SITUATION WHERE I’M NOT SURE WHAT’S GOING ON.
WELL, I’M SITTING HERE BREAKING MY HEAD (I EVEN HAVE A FRIEND HERE TRYING TO HELP ME) TO UNDERSTAND IF THERE’S EVEN ONE BIT OF TRUTH IN WHAT YOU’RE SAYING,
(UH,UH,MHHHH,MHHH, SCRATCH ON THE HEAD,TAKE MY GLASSES OFF AND CLEAN THEM MAKE SOME THINKING TWITCHES)
I JUST CAN’T THINK OF ANY TRUTH IN WHAT YOU’RE SAYING , BECAUSE ARE YOU GONNA TELL ME THAT THERE’S EVEN ONE KID IN THE SYSTEM THAT GROWS UP THINKING THAT SHAOBOS AND TTG (Talking To Girls)
IS ON THE SAME LEVEL?
NOT ONE,
NOPE,
NOT EVEN A KID GROWING UP IN THE MODERN ORTHODOX CIRCLES, SO WHAT’S YOUR POINT?
ARE YOU JUST BASHING THE “YESHIVA SYSTEM” LIKE MANY PEOPLE LIKE TO DO , ALL FOR DIFFERENT REASONS,(WONDER WHAT YOUR REASON IS)
SO GO AHEAD AND TAKE A POLL AND ASK AS MANY TEENS AS YOU HAVE THE TIME TO, “DO YOU THINK TTG IS ON THE SAME LEVEL AS SHABOS? OR DO YOU THINK DRUGS IS AS BAD AS TREIF?
I’LL GO A THOUSAND DOLLARS TO ONE THAT YOU’LL GET NOBODY (NEVER SAY NOBODY, THERE’S ALWAYS SOME KOOKS OUT THERE, OK SO LETS GO WITH 99.99% OK)
GOOD LUCK & MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A DOLLAR READY FOR ME WHEN YOU’RE DONE
PERSONALY I THINK YOU’RE
FORGET IT I’LL HOLD MYSELF BACK FROM PUTTING YOU DOWN SO MUCH,
GO ON AND TAKE THAT POLL..
I know Rabbi Horowitz personally and can attest to his sincerity, commitment to, and selfless efforts for, the benefit of our community. However, to whom is he speaking when he writes: “Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we should resist the seductive route of merely ‘banning’ places and activities for our growing teen population”?
Perhaps he is referring to the parents who are attempting to raise their children with Jewish values such as tznius and restraint and not the Greek / Roman / Western value of fun and gasus ruach.
If that is so then why mention Woodbourne, no, Monticello, yes; Frum pizza shops, no, Non-Jewish pool halls, yes; Public areas, no, Motels and apartments in non-Jewish neighborhoods, yes? No one is “merely ‘banning’ (these) places and activities” except our gedolim. He is therefore giving the impression that he is addressing the “eyes of our aidah” — our gedolim; manhigim and poskim. It would be ironic at best and pathetic at worst, that this comment should be made in the week of Seder Shoftim.
Rabbi Horowitz IS filling a void. He IS probably helping many kids. He DOES raise many issues that must be faced and addressed by everyone in our community — manhigim, lay-leaders, and baalei batim. However, the above comment requires some explanation. If indeed he is referring to our leaders and not to the parents, then what does he mean by saying “we should resist the seductive route of merely ‘banning’ places and activities for our growing teen population”? On what basis does he offer advice to these gedolim on what they should and should not “resist”?
It is perhaps true that no one else has accepted the responsibility for our youth. Granted. It is likewise possible that no one else has done as much to raise our awareness of the challenges facing the youth of this generation. He deserves much credit for that. But Rabbi Horowitz himself has stated (perhaps on one of his tapes) that he has no mesorah for his approach and that much of it is the direct result of, and reaction to, his own difficult chinuch experiences.
One final and very important note. It would seem our youth did NOT get “the new math.” The message was Attah bchartanu mikol ha’amim. The message was tznius. The message was ashreinu mah tov chelkeinu. The message was b’chukoseihem lo sailaichu. The message was eidelkeit. Perhaps we have failed miserably to teach these lessons. Perhaps the parents’ running to and glorifying Succos in Eretz Yisroel, Winter in Florida, Pesach in Switzerland, their summer homes, summer camps, leased cars, Blackberries, and Bluetooths (is the plural for Bluetooth, Blueteeth?) has mislead our children as to what a Yid’s priorities are. But our leaders need to tell us that as well.
I look forward to Rabbi Horowitz’s reply.
i think that this is all nuts. all these kids want is attention. Maybe if everyone would ignore them for a bit, then they’d hit rockbottom, and they’ll come begging for help. Too much time and energy is being provided to those upstate, when frankly speaking, the people in NY and MOnsey who are in dire need of help; and are looking to be helped, are completely neglected. Why is it a bigger mitzvah to run after those who arent interested. I would love to know why the rabbis run to the police station trying to bail out these stupid teenagers. Let them rot in jail, and learn their lesson. Ive been bought up with the knowledge that to every action, there are consenquences. When will these kids learn if ppl are continuosly pulling them out???????? Please enlighten me???????
kol hakovod to all the askonom this is a tremendous zechos
the bottomline is that everyoe will try to fix a problem that exists today without looking into the future. its great they did something about woodbourne and now monticello. HAS ANYBODY DONE ANYTHING TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING NEXT SUMMER AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION??!!!- I DONT THINK SO
To: An Israeli Yid
Reb Moshe ZT”L used to say, “mir muz zein normal”!
What is normal? #1 it is relative (It is not based on the “outside world’s” standard of normal although it probably is effected by it. Everyone has a different “normal” based on “where he/she is holding” at the moment. #2 It must be determined by daas Torah.
IsraeliYid,
That is your opinion, not Rabbi Horowitz’s. The Gedolei Yisroel had every good reason to ban those “concerts.” I would not question that the Gedolim know good and well what is going on. Please don’t delude yourself into thinking these great sages of Klal Yisroel can be manipulated, and are pliable “by those with an agenda” (as you put it.) That is the lazy man’s excuse for disregarding the decisions of Daas Torah. And I think it is chutzpadik to refer to these Tzadikim’s ban as “knee-jerk.”
Rabbi Horowitz says that “merely” banning these places is seductive. He said we need to do more than just ban them. But Rabbi Horowitz still agrees that when Daas Torah banned certain “places”, they were done “for some very good reasons.”
shuali
Are you saying that only the rich have the ‘kids at risk’? If so, you are sssssoooooo wrong! There are some of the best mishpachos out there that are dealing with challenging & beautiful kids.
While it looks like this past M”S, there was some improvement, I think that this a much larger problem than just in the mountains.
This is an major issue throughout Klal Yisroel – in every single frum city.
There are no simple solutions. I certainly don’t have the answers, & I don’t know who does.
But…… let’s all say 1 kapitel tehilim more, 1 extra blatt gemorra, 1 more chessed, etc.
I can assure you – that will more constructive than anything else!
Stan: That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying, and have said in previous posts, that we are getting the wrong message across to our children. While we, in this generation of ever-increasing numbers of Yeshivos, Bais Yaakovs, and kollelim, Bnei Torah and Bnos Yisroel, should be able to express to our children Ashreinu, mah tov chelkeinu, we nonetheless seem to be expressing to them that we still lack. Where our parents and grandparents suceeded in singing to us az s’iz gut tzu zein a Yid, we seem to be singing s’iz shver tzu zein a Yid. This song takes a few forms.
(1) The ones who give their kids everything without earning or deserving it, simply because they shouldn’t do without (perhaps as they did. (“We want to give you all the great things we could not have. Shabbos and kashrus are great, but we can have MORE. Your grandparents could had to sacrifice for Shabbos, kashrus, taharas mishpachah, schar limud, etc. We don’t have to have to do without the good things in life.”)
(2) The ones who cannot pr choose not to give their kids everything and give their children the impression they are disadvantaged because of it. {“Your father has sacrificed so much to stay in the Bais Medrash.” Sacrificed??!!)
(3) The ones whose parents give all the right messages except the ONE that their children are the reason for living — to perpetuate the mesorah, to bring up doros yesharim.
(4) The ones who express the above message, but spend all their free time at shiurim, tzedakah functions, simchos, even giving chinuch lectures themselves.
(5) The ones who spend time with their kids, learn with them, play with them, AND give all the right messages, but complain the Rebbeim and Moros are not doing a good job.
IF OUR CHILDREN WILL BELIEVE THEIR YERUSHAH/CHELEK IS LACKING – LOVE, PLEASURE, SECURITY, FULFILLMENT/SIMCHAH – THEY WILL LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR THESE THINGS.
It seems like many take the easy way out, both in this article and last weeks to blame the yeshivos. We have to keep in mind that the yeshivos and BY’s have developed a system that is able to help most of the kids most of the time. It is the best that is possible. In pre-war Europe when there were other spiritual dangers facing our youth the yeshivos weren’t faulted. To change the chinuch system of Klal Yisrael is dangerous.
To change the chinuch system of Klal Yisrael is dangerous
To Shauli:
You are correct, what is normal is not solely determined by the outside world, and Daas Torah must be consulted. That being said, attempting to impose a single Daas Torah on all of Klal Yisrael is against many generations of Daas Torah. As an example, in the Eruv controversy in Flatbush, the younger Rav Wosner (from Monsey) paskened that the Eruv was fine, while a numebr of local rabbonim, including R’ Hillel David and R’ Yisroel Belsky, held that it was totally unacceptable. When the younger Rav Wosner turned to his father in E”Y for support, hsi fatehr told him that his halachic logic was correct, but he had no business giving a psak about an area that already had its own local rabbonim who had paskened on the issue.
To Joseph:
Having lived in Eretz Yisrael for a number of years and having had relationships with a number of gedolim there, I can assure you that unfortunately, what is publicly put out in the names of Gedolim is frequently either taken out of context, based on a response that is the result of incomplete or inaccurate information, or flat-out fabricated. If you are looking for a specific example of a case where a rav stated that he had not been given complete information (and this is only an example; I don’t want to get into the politics of the topic of the psak), Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is widely quoted to have said that his psak in favor of the Oslo Accords was based on misinformation he was given by the then-political head of Shas.
As far as the ban being knee-jerk – I continue to stand by my assertion that the ban is initially concieved by those with an agenda (whom you apparently do not believe exist). Accordingly, there is no lack of kavod in calling them just what they are. While I happen to also believe that the concert in Yerushalayim was in poor taste (Yerushalayim is not an appropriate place for such an event, so long as the current abomination occupies the place that should rightfully be occupied by the Beis HaMikdash – once the Mikdash is there, it is absolutely the place to have a concert), banning it, particularly when such a ban will be widely ignored and would only cause ridicule of those who ban it, is clearly not a wise move. Rather, if asked a specific She’ela regarding attending the concert, a Rav, taking into account the individual involved, could have provided advice on the matter.
Joseph, I know you have your views regarding what is Daas Torah and how it is determined. I know what it is, and disagree, based on what I learned from my Rabeim, both in the US, and here in Eretz Yisrael since I’ve had the zechus to move here. The individuals I’ve spoken with include major Roshei Yeshiva in the large Litvish Yeshivos in the US and in Israel, and they disagree with you also. Therefore, while I’m sure you have your authority for your views (R’ Yoel Teitelbaum ZT”L, whom I acknowledge as a major gadol though I do not follow his shitos), please respect my right follow my Rabeim. That is part of the concept of Eilu Va’Eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim, is it not?
Respectfully,
an Israeli Yid
rabbi horowitz is to be commended
however for those of us in the know here in monsey
the yeshiva menahlim are still claiming that they dont have any problems with any of there kids. And I dont mean to the hamoin am even bachedrei chaderim the manahlim just dont get it.
For those of us in chinuch our hearts are bleeding for these kids- our kids. We need to be more loving and more in tune to them.No-one wants chinuch to change- yet every situation has its own dimention to it, we need to accept the matziv and be prepared to deal with it in a positive loving way. Dont beat these kids up they are going thru so much, LISTEN to them, SHOW COMPASSION to them and understand that they are not enjoying life right now and are struggling with it.
Some of the problems are due to parents at home disrespecting the rebbes and moros of the yeshivos their kids have. Parents who tell their kids “as long as you live under my roof,get supported by us,you do as we tell you to,no matter what they tell you in school! When you need a new suit,shirt,shoes,furniture,doctors’ care,will WE take care of that or will your rebbe?”
Then there are those rebbes and moros who,by certain remarks downplay the respect that kids should have at home for their parents by letting them know that their parents do not dress properly,or daven the right nussach,or pronounce the Hebrew the right way or use the correct hashgochos,etc. The kids love to undermine the respect they must give;it is a way of flexing their “wings: as they try to become independent. They use their teachers as ammunition against their parents,and when it works in their favor the other way,then that’s what they’ll do. They may say and even do the “right” thing while arround you,only to do something completely the opposite as soon as they are free to do so. To talk to a girl or say “good Shabbos” to a girl you know,should not be a criminal act for a 14- year-old boy as bad as as having an affair with a girl. The kids don’t even get the proper information about boy-girl.puberty,maturing,info from their parents,but they notice urges happening naturally without knowing how to deal with them. As long as we live among the goyim.their culture will always seep in to our lives. Our rabbonim and parents must be more ‘kid-friendly’ and less mean or money-driven. There are too many reasons for all this that it needs a lot of expertize (Torahdig) to fix this situation. Aren’t the boys going back to yeshiva in Ellul? Do all young people have to go to the country for the summer? I do not have the answers,nor do I see so many problems among the people I live with.There are activities and hobbies that teenagers can do to relax,it doesn’t have to be only ” learn every minute or you’re a sinner” kind of atmosphere.The kids need more caring,love and affection from their parents and teachers. Kids know MUCH more than they get credit for knowing.
IsraeliYid
You should have hatzlacha raba in bringing up generations of beautiful kinderlach who are ohav es habrios, in the Holiest Land.
Israeli Yid,
Absolutely. You are fully entitled to follow acknowledged Gedolei Yisroel. But your comments above castigated the statements of the very Litvishe Daas Torah that you follow. Maran Hagoen Rav Elyashiv, Maran Hagoen Rav Shteinman, and Maran Hagoen Rav Sheinberg Shlitas (amongst others) all signed the ban on the concerts. For you to accuse all these Gedolei Yisroel of acting in “knee-jerk” fashion, and for all of these Daas Torah of being manipulatable and pliable by others for nefarious purposes, and that these helige Yidden do not know whats going on at these concerts before they all signed the ban, and that somehow they all are being misled and the truth withheld from them, (with one of them being far smarter than any one of us), is not improbable but rather impossible. To put it quite mildly, these are not gullible people.
And we are not talking about anything being taken out of context here, we are talking about the word-for-word signed Psak Halacha of these great sages.
Young people need a place to go. Where should they go? Concerts are now forbidden. There are no recreation centers. If there aren’t supervised social activities, young people will find their own entertainment.
Parents and Rabbis, your restrictions have backfired! B”H Rabbi Horwitz knows what he is doing!
Mr. Yid: See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/concert.jpg for the actual Kol Koreh.
It is very specific.
Joseph,
You still do not seem to get my point. The knee-jeerk reaction I refer to is that of those who print and distribute the various Kol Korehs, and I absolutedly believe that anyone, including Gedolim, can either a) have their words twisted, or b) be given a She’ela in a manner that lends itself to the desired conclusion, if certain critical facts are withheld. As noted in my example of Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita, this has happened, and unless there some reason why a Litvish Gadol is more able to present an infalible Daas Torah than a Gaon of Sefardic origin, why do you believe that Litvish gedolim can not be mislead? (As an aside, infalibility of a religious leader, from what I know, is a Catholic concept, not a Jewish one; otherwise, why would there be such a thing as a Par Helem Davar?! Are our Gedolim on a greater level than the Sanhedrin in the time of the Beis HaMikdash???)
From personal experience I can say that the only way to be sure that what is being publicized in teh name of a Gadol is truly what they intended is to hear it from the Gadol himself; that’s why it’s critical for each and every one of us to have a relationship with a posek that he can speak with _in_person_ when necessary (I do!).
an Israeli Yid
Joseph – I am not saying that Yeshivos should/would tell the bochrim to start hanging out with girls, just that by having a punishment for this on the same level as being a Mechalel Shabbos, needs rethinking. Although, I would like to hear some of your “very good reason” why “It must be that way, and it will remain like that.”
Chiller — I applaud your Elul kabalah on being Dan L’Kaf Zechus..good luck with that.
I agree with you 100% that any Yeshiva student – Yeshivish, Chasidish, Modern – knows full well that there is huge difference between eating treifis and talking with girls, so it seems that you missed my point.
What you need to understand is the mind of a teenager. They see things in the immediate. They live in the here and now. This is why teens (all teens, not only Frum ones) have little sense of danger and always think that have it all figured out. They don’t see far down the road…they can’t envision anything beyond the next curve. If this wasn’t the case, then frum kids, certainly, wouldn’t need any punishment from the Yeshivos or their parents, they would have the fear of G-d to steer them straight, but unfortunately we all struggle our entire lives to be able to live so purely.
So, here we are trying to teach our kids right from wrong and creating consequences and penalties for their actions. These punishments need to fit the crimes, and also need to teach the child. By lumping all “assur’d” activities into 1 category, there is no way for kids to learn and understand about true Yiddiskeit, Halacha and Ahavas Hashem, all they will see is a sea of thing that are forbidden, with no understanding of the “why’s & how’s” that we all struggle with as Frum Jews through life.
I feel that no credit has been given to Rabbi Wallerstein who has been speaking about this issue for more than a month now. He specifically mentioned and alcohol parties which took place in Loch Sheldrake on his broadcasts of Ohr Naavah lectures that can be heard on kol Haloshon. It is due to his efforts and other courages mechanchim who are at the forefront of dealing with CAR issues, that these issues are coming to light and solutions hopefully will be found.
Israeli Yid,
I’ll tell you one thing for sure. Any one of Maran Hagoen Rav Elyashiv, Maran Hagoen Rav Shteinman, and Maran Hagoen Rav Sheinberg Shlitas and all the other signers of this Kol Koreh are on a greater level, a lot smarter, and far closer to infallibility (which I never said they have) than you.
You are accusing every one of these MANY signers, who are from the greatest of the great in Klal Yisroel, in fact nearly ALL of our greatest leaders of being gullible to others nefarious plans. How do you figure SO MANY Gedolei Yisroel could be fooled so easily? Do you think ALL of these Gedolei Yisroel are incapable of ascertaining the real fact as you know them? ALL of them were fooled?
There words were not twisted. Read the Kol Koreh word-for-word. A photocopy was published on Yeshiva World in the original post on it. It is very clear. It is the Daas Torah’s own words, with their own signatures.
Again, read the letter these Gedolim signed word-for-word.
Chaim Yankel,
I don’t think why bochorim shouldn’t (stam) being shmoozing with girls needs explanation. If you really don’t know why, I suggest you pick up a Pirkei Avos. (I never addressed what the punishment should be.)
Israeli Yid,
My point here is that you implied that these MANY heilige Yidden were either misquoted (which I demonstrated they were not — read the actual text they signed) or misinformed. And what I am telling you is that any one of these very smart Tzadikim are not easily fooled. And to say that ALL of them were fooled about the real fact, to induce them to sign a Kol Koreh (and ban an activity) that doesn’t reflect the real facts, is preposterous (to put it nicely.)
Mr. Yid: See comment #37 for a copy of the actual Kol Koreh.
Nearly ALL of Eretz Yisroel’s Daas Torah signed it.
They all read what they sign.
And you can’t bamboozle all of so many Tzadikim into banning something. These Tzadikim investigate the facts BEFORE signing off on a ban. And even if you claim you may be able to delude a Tzadik once in while, to claim some people with an agenda have duped nearly all of Eretz Yisroel’s leadership to sign off on this, is wacky.
Israeli,
Do you think that not even one of these Rabbonim would have realized that this mysterious person or persons you are referring to, wanted a specific response? They were all, the many choshove Rabbonim, hoodwinked?
Or do you assume these choshove Rabbonim do not read what they ostensibly say? None of these choshove Rabbonim? They all made the same mistake, regarding the same concert issue, at the same time? A rather rare coincidence won’t you say?
And what is knee-jerk about printing and distributing the very words of Daas Torah?
And can you enlighten all of us what the “certain critical facts” that were “withheld” from these many choshove Rabbonim that led them to mistakenly ban these concerts, that apparently you are privy to know but not them?
i feel i need to post since there are really only adult persepctives on here, and no one understands teens more than a teen themself even though i am sure many of you have teens and work with teens. I am suprised to see that no one has figured out what drives us teens to do what we do. Whoever said attention was a little close, but basically its because the yeshiva system is ignoring the problems that is facing our generation now, they are just filling us up and ignoring the emotional problems that face us teens now, whenther they range from a loss of a sbiling or parent, abuse, or a messy divorce these are issues that are very prevalent now a days but yet are being ignored and leave the teen feeling alone and no place to turn to thus they turn to other teens or hanging out as a way of blocking out their problems, but yet by ignoring the problems its making worse. I am not saying this is what leads all teens to hang out and do things they should be doing but this is the reason for many, i think adults would be very suprised is they spoke to us teens and saw how much we are hurting inside.
Maybe the Gedolim should turn to the YW commentators for the inside scoop of the real-facts before rendering their decisions. It appears some of us feel they are more street-smart then them.
If you know stuff that the Gedolim don’t that is relevant to the issue at hand, why don’t you inform them of their “mistakes” so they can issue a corrected opinion? AFAIK the ban on concerts is still in place.
arealteen, Yasher Koach for your heartfelt words. May it be acted upon very soon.
To #18 – Chiller – who wrote everything in CAPS….
You are so wrong it is clear you have never personally dealt with any of these children. There are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS that really do not see the difference between Chilul Shabbos, Tarfus, girls, drugs etc. (Keep in mind we are talking about immature teenagers who are not thinking clear). To you there is such a clear difference but to them they are all the same. They are all no-no’s
One way to help assist us who are there and do try to make a difference is to better understand these children and to learn how to see the world AS THEY SEE IT. Then, with your adult, mature, clear thinking you will be able to guide them, love them, encorage them and lift them back up into the real world.
Don’t bash – rather study and learn the ways and needs of these children and then your eyes will bulge your heart will hurt and your feet will run to help.
Israeli Yid,
You still assume that so many of Klal Yisroel’s leaders were all gullible to these unforeseen forces you keep referring to. That ALL the Gedolim were “influenced by outside forces” (in your words.) That is not just implausible, it is impossible considering the great number of Torah personalities all involved in instituting this ban.
And there is nothing “purported” (as you put it) about the signatories. I assure you if even one “purported” signatory was publicized without their actual haskoma, they would have publically stated as such. You can’t get away with publically distributing thousands of copies of a Kol Koreh that has false signatories. Your assertion clearly borders on the preposterous.
You are completely free to follow your acknowledged Daas Torah.
To “ihadenough”
“I would love to know why the rabbis run to the police station trying to bail out these stupid teenagers. Let them rot in jail, and learn their lesson.”
These children are our very own brothers and sisters! Would you think this way about your own family???
# 49 If only more people would learn his derech!! It is honest and practical. Go to one extreme and you just crash. Everything is ossur and everyone is evil except the ones that follow Rebbe “so and so: The rabbonim don’t read what is written here,remember,the internet is ossur. and they spend every minute learning Torah,with no time to ‘waste’ to read or listen to the news.The teens are full of sexual energy and drives that older people no longer feel. Try to remember what it was like to be a curious 12-yr -old and no responsible adult to confide in and be respected as a person.
ARealTeen – your words hit home. There are support groups in the secular world for the issues that you mentioned for adults. Do you think that if such support groups were created for Jewish teens without any stigma associated with the ‘support group mentality’, it would be sought after? Everyone needs to ‘fit in’ somewhere, probably, teenagers more so, since they are not quite adults, not children. Perhaps the creation of such a group could help boster a person’s self esteem, and realize that they are not the only one facing difficulties in a particular area of their life?
Israeli Yid,
Read what I repeatedly wrote above. I do not believe in infallability.
To Mr. 26 Estates
I completely disagree with you teens have tavus for girls drugs and all they want to do is to hang out they generally don’t have issues with chillul Shabbas now once they do the hang outing with girls and drop that part of Judaism then the issue with Shabbas and treif comes in do you ever see a 16 yr old michalel Shabbas but doesn’t talk to girls no its after they hang out with girls that they say forget I messed up im gone forget the whole thing. The Yeshivas don’t need to deal with chillul Shabbas or treif because that is not a nisayon they need to deal with girls…When you say that they don’t know a difference between chillul Shabbas and talking to girls its irrelevant because that’s not a nisayon for them in addition what difference do you want them to see they see their both assur midaraysa
Mr.Bugnot you are so right these teens need to see frum teens chilling and having a good time they all think that without a girl and beer you can’t have a good time. Parents need to let their teens have a good kosher time i.e. if your kid wants to go on a kosher trip with some friends don’t stop him or her let them have a good time in a kosher way its when parents don’t let there kids do anything that they say forget it I am just going to go with other friends (bad friends) because my parents don’t let me go anywhere anyway. There was a comment on the discussion regarding going to Lake Gorge this is what the guy wrote (Litoeles Horabim, zits eingeleigt. Running around to Lake George, New Mexico, wherever, is not appropriate for Frum people, not to mention unsafe, as it seems to bring out reckless & dangerous behavior in our crowd. Just read the news of all the tragedies this summer) then parents want to know why there kid is looking for other fun its ridicules let the kid get away let him or her have a good time.
May I respectfully suggest that the key to resolving this issue lay in the hands of our Heads of Yeshivas. If they would open up an ongoing dialogue, a forum perhaps, between themselves, the struggling parents, and the struggling teens this might be a step in the right direction, at least to UNDERSTANDING the problem. This should also involve true experts in the field (such as Rabbi Horowitz or Rabbi Russel). As long as the problem is considered foreign and menahelim consider themselves above going to the source for a cooperative effort, I don’t believe we will accomplish anything more here than an airing of the issue (which is also important).
Chiller – It may start as a Taayva for girls but once they are Oiver on that then there is no difference between Shabbos and girls etc. If you don’t agree with me perhaps you should be around these kids and ask for yourself.
By the way there are many teenagers to embarrased to be seen in public talking to girls but will IM or text them ON SHABBOS or be on the internet ON SHABBOS because they don’t have a love or appreciation for Shabbos. Shabbos most certainly is a Nisayon for them. It is a day in their eyes that is full of restrictions and a day where so many things are not permissible. That is the Mahus of their stuggle – they hate restrictions. That is what I mean by saying to them there is no difference between girls, drugs, traif and Shabbos.
I Think you are wrong I spend much times with teens at risk and thats not the case.
whats with everyone saying how guys have such teivaos and problems with girls, it takes two to tango, girls have the same thing, they have the same urges to speak to guys and let it go from there. I think the problem is that the problems are not being recognized. Guys do things out there so everyone sees ,now what they are doing and maybe can help them, but girls are more closed and secretive so people tend to think there isnt a problem when in trith there is and the problems are usually worse since they are being so secretive about it.
Response to Joseph-#52:
I think you may be misinformed. Just this week i saw a re-issue of a Hisachdus Kol Koreh originaly published maybe 25 years ago. At that time i thought the message was over-the-top and when i saw the list of ‘signators’ i was suprised to find our own dear elderly Rov on the list. Next Shabbos I had the guts to ask him why he signed onto what i thought was such a silly issue, and i’ll never forget his response: “You think ‘they’ ask me my permission when they publish these Kol Korehs?” So, I asked him, “your name is there, if you disagree with the use of your name, why don’t you protest?” He took a few steps away from the bimah, pointed to the windows (the shtibel was a corner house) and told us all he needs is for his rebbetzin to be sitting at the window and a rock comes through… He has too many windows…
I don’t know if our dear Rov part of “the Gedolim”? but i do know that there is allways more than meets the eye with these Kol Korehs, and it is legitimate to ask questions about them, or to question them, for example: Who wrote the text of the proclamtion? Somebody did. Did one of the signator Rabbanim decide to do something about the problem, draft the Kol Koreh and then get others to sign? How often does this happen. Or maybe some individiual or vaad wishes to save klal yisrael? Who pays for the publication? etc.
Clearly not every single Kol Koreh is the exact same as a proper shaila v’teshuva composed by a posek, and clearly not every Kol Koreh undersigned by any Gadol b’Torah carries equal weight for every halacha-dedicated Jew. So questions are legitimate. When answers are not forthcoming, things may be a bit fishy…
Re the Kids at Risk: Ein adam b’aretz asher ya’aseh tov v’loh yech’te… most “normal” kids want to have fun, and for many they need to search for their “fun” outside of what is safe, emotionally and physically. I agree with many of the others: if every deviation from halacha is considered equal in severity, or if every deviation is an equal cause for a shrill Kol Koreh, and if very deviation from halacha is cause for equal ostracizing from ‘the good’ kids, and maybe exclusion from a quality yeshiva, then we risk more and more kids throwing caution to the wind in their search for fun and “fulfillment”. Teenagers need to feel “alive” and when they don’t get it from home or from yeshiva (girls and boys) many will keep shopping around. This is not anything new. The question is how to keep them safe from harm, self inflicted or otherwise, emotionally and physically.
Another important factor that drives teenagers to rebel is others (adults,teachers,friends etc..) judging them by one act ex: if they are seen doing something like walking into a video store or saying hi to a boy/girl-forget it its over the world thinks theyve gone all the way down-if e/o would just be a little more tolerant to those that may not be as machmir as you in certain areas, it would help-dont make them think they just killed somebody for watching a movie, or talking to the opposite gender ,because by doing this it leads teens to think that since e/o thinks they went totally off already they can now do whatever they want. Remember teens are VERY dependent on what others think abt them-they may pretend they dont care but they do & that explains “Arealteens” comments saying that teens coming from broken homes have n/o to pour out their emotional pain to & they have many worries & concerns abt what ppl think of them & their families.
The best way to help them is LOVE them , accept them for who they are , try to build up their self esteem & self image & just b there to listen to them let them do the talking!
Brooklyn, I am specifically referring to the concert Kol Koreh above, not making some general observation.
Why can’t individuals disagree and then wish each other a ‘good afternoon’ rather than continue with, I think that…….My rav said…..Hello, don’t you know that……
To sayitlikeitsis-#68:
Because we are stiff-necked, argumentative, and when amongst friends, or in the beis medrash, we try to say it like we see it! It is our weakness and our strength. By stuggling with each other over ideas, maybe we can be left with bits of truth. The day different parts, and different-thinking groups, of Am Yisrael stop arguing, some times vociferously, will either be the day of redemtion, or the day, chalila, of our disintegration.
But you are right, it behooves us to be gentle in our vociferousness.
Especially when i’m right. 🙂
If people would not be so critical of each other and look down on those who don’t meet their standards perhaps,the kids would feel more part of it. Kids feel out of place within their own homes,families,shuls,neighborhoods,because of the way certain people look at them,ignore them,or just by the friends they may or may not be together with.Young people are much more sensitive to criticism because life is still full of new things,things older people take for granted. One look or remark could affect a young person for life. You don’t draw kids to tou my being mean. You must show them love,sometimes “tough love,depending on the circumstantances. Let them participate more in shul activities,in family events and decision making regarding their lives. The black-hat,white -shirt-wearing boy is not necessarily more frum than the yarmulke,colored shirt-wearing boy is. Speaking Yiddish does not make someone more frum than an English-only speaking young person is. Those who don.t listen to radio or watch TV are not always more devout than those that do. Those with less knowledge about the real world are the ones who struggle more later on in life and won’t be able to deal with the ‘outside’world.Many so-called more -than-me frum people don’t know basic halochos about davening or following the laws of the land,and improvise as they ahead in life and then look down on those who don’t act like them. Middos and derech eretz are only important to teach to BY girls,but not to boys or grownups in shul. How many adults go to shuls where the rabbi or Rov speaks to them in mussar and hashkofo today? FEW, ,(esp among ‘frum’).What is ‘ikkar’ and what is ‘tofel’is all mixed up. That makes it hard to find a direction,a derech,in life.
Parents: WAKE UP!
The Yeshiva has its role in aiding you to raise your child. If your child had a traumatic experience, make sure the Rebbe/Morah knows.
and
Talk to your children about these issues before they get into trouble – while they are still preteen and young teens.
Let them know that you are there for them to answer questions.
know who there friends are.
spend time with them.
finally…
DOVEN…DOVEN…DOVEN…and DOVEN some more…
It would be nice if we could think of our Rebbes/Morahs, Yeshivas, and communities at large as a place to turn to when we have had a traumatic experience. First we must be sure that 1) if the trauma involved the yeshiva or it’s staff, that the reputation issues would not come first and the report be turned around to victimize the student; and 2) if the trauma originated in the home or community that telling the Rebbe/Morah would result in real help, and not just ostracizing and lashon hara.
Getting back to what started this discussion: Are the young people who are hanging out in the wrong,un-Jewish-like hangouts going there with their payos out,black hats,or big yarmulkes and tzitzis out ? Or do they change into more casual clothes? Are the gils wearing their BY uniforms,or long dresses,or do they change into non-frum clothing? If they hang out in these spots,are they doing things in public that are illegal,as well as anti-halochig? If this is going on with frum-looking young people,it is a public chillul Hashem. What happened with the original young preople who got in trouble with the law? Where do these kids get the money for getting the forbidden items and to go to forbidden events or places,if they are in yeshiva? Let’s hope there will be articles about this specific discussion of Yeshiva news.in the Jewish Observer, the Yated and Hamodia;not just in the Jewish Press. If this is happening in the chassidic families,then the Yiddish magazines should also discuss the issue. That should get the rabbonim to get together,like at the Agudah convention,and address the issue,not just for discussion,but with solutions so this behaviour can be stopped before it’s too late for more of our children.(See all the previous remarks on this site)
Reposted:
The last mishna in the 2nd perek of Pirkei Avos states:
הוא היה אומר לא עליך המלאכה לגמור. ולא אתה בן חורין ליבטל ממנה
Don’t say “I don’t want to start because I can’t finish” and don’t throw in the towel and say “I can’t finish, so why continue” The goal is not to finish! The goal is to start and do to the best of your ability. Hashem will do the rest.
read previous thread.
Comment #70 reminds me of a mussar schmooze i heard — the way to get your child to daven in shul is not to say, ‘Shhh! Shhh! Daven! Daven!’ but by setting a stellar example yourself. Though it is challenging, children see right through parent’s hypocrisy “Chaim, tell the caller I’m not home!” and judgementalism. Perhaps if we could curb our mouths from denigrating others because of their dress/appearance/spectrum of observance our children will not do the same nor feel the same about their own self image.
I frequently see behavior in children which is a direct reflection of the parent’s behavior. The apple doesn’t fall too far…
Mom18-#55, I think it would be extremley benificial to introduce support groups or something similar for frum teens that they dont feel so alone and feel they have to turn to the streets, opposite gender, or hang out crowds to get help for their problems. It would make a big diffrence in many teens life if we give them a place to go to be helped. I hope someone can act on this and help make a diffrence in many teens lives.
Like the proverbial canary in the mine, the kids are letting us know that there is something very wrong in our community. Waiting till they’re teen agers to address issues is far too late. On my block, every day I see infants being dropped off at the local baby-sitters strapped in their car-seats. As these baby-sitters have large families of their own,how much attention will they be able to give to the babies they are watching? We are very careful as to kahrut, eruvs, etc; how much thought are we giving to raising our children?
IsraeliYid,
You should give our Talmidei Chachomim and Gedolei Yisroel more credit than being mre puppets with men behind the screen pulling the strings.
No one can pressure these great sages to do what is wrong or what they do not believe is right. the decisions they make are there own. No conclude otherwise is illusory and entirely fictional. Its only purpose would be to avoid the decisions they issue.
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