Yeshivaworld just hung up the phone with Mr. Richard Newhouse, who is the Assistant NY Division Director of Operations with the NYS Thruway Authority. The stern warning that was given to us to relay to our readership was short, and clear.
The Thruway Authority is fed-up with the complaints of people selling food, collecting Tzedakah, and leaving a mess at the Sloatsburg Rest-Area. They have told Yeshivaworld that this is their final warning. If this behavior continues, the Mincha Area will be shut down.
They are serious.
Yeshivaworld had posted a warning a few weeks ago (HERE) urging people to make a Kiddush Hashem, and not a Chillul Hashem. Unfortunately a few individuals have not listened, and by selling Cholent etc. they have placed the entire Mincha Area in jeopardy.
“The Mincha Area is for praying only, nothing else”, said Mr. Newhouse.
Rabbi Bernard Freilich, special assistant to the Superintendent of the New York State Police, is urging everyone once again to heed the warning of the Thruway Authority.
“They were nice enough to give us the Mincha Area, and because of a few people we are about to lose it”, Rabbi Freilich told Yeshivaworld. “Please, just Daven – get back in your car and leave the area.”
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53 Responses
Rabosi,
You have no idea how much pressure the state is from the lib wakkos who view this as a violation of seperation of you know what and State. Please use your G-d given brains and be a mentch. If you see anyone violating the state laws at the rest stop YOU should stop them. Tell them they are ruining it for all the yiddin who travel upstate.
Better idea: The COPS should lock up these two or three nuts who are runing it for 10 thousand
R’ Freilich –
This is simple.
Shut down the Minchah area.
Obviously, some ppl will only continue to make a Chilul Hashem, so just make it stop.
People know taht before you go on a drive, you need to be sure you have gas, take a snack with you, and go to the bathroom. They should also know to daven Mincha.
If you are running late, there are many minyanim along the way; Teaneck, Monsey, Monroe, KJ, etc…
Why should our entire comminuty be looked at like a bunch of slobbish, chazerish people?
Please shut the Mincha area now…. not next week, not after the summer. Now.
This way the Chilul Hashem can stop, before Chodesh Elul arrives.
This summer I davened a number of times at the Minicha area and there was no food served!
Shut down the mincha area. It is not worth the Chilul Hashem. daven Mincha before you leave or after you get there. Is that such a hard thing to do? Or even Daven B’Yechidus to avoid Chilul Hashem.
This is one more example of the entitlement attitude like the people who make minyanim on planes, or complain about christmas trees in public places. We are in golus.
This is not a golus issue, rather a derech eretz issue, and golus will be with us until we can repair our derech eretz.
what I meant was that just because the thruway people are kind enough to allow us a mincha place does not mean we should jump at the chance to publicly display our frumkeit whether we abuse the privelage or not. It has everything to do with being in galus (you spelled it better than me).
Yes it’s most definitely a GOLUS issue. The fellows in the videos looked like they were not the Zionist type and I assume that the overwhelming majority of the mispallelim feel that the State of Israel is wrong as we’re still in Golus. WELL YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! There are specific ways the jews are supposed to act in exile. The overriding concept is to act and live lowkey, not act like we own the place. Try flying an Israeli flag by Minchah, then you’ll hear arguments that we’re still in Golus. Reading these blogs I’m amazed at the haughtiness of some of the writers, that anything that is done is antisemitic and we are always being attacked. Get a life and realize that we have never been so lucky in history to live in such a Malchus Shel Chessed!
NYS Thruway Authority is not some heimish organization that goes along with the flow, they have rules, regulations and enforcers.
This is such a shame. Nebech!! Why can’t people act like mentchen instead of like peasants?
We are given a privilege to be able to daven in the rest area. Instead of showing appreciation and acting like mention, they go around and act as if it is all coming to them.
They go ahead and park illegally, litter, sell food, and other nuisances.
The cops should just summons anybody who sells food or who litter, or do anything that is wrong.
If their parents didn’t teach them, perhaps the police can.
Hashem would rather mincha “biyechidis” w/o a chillul Hashem, than mincha biminyan with a chillul hashem.
This is poshut, “Vihah Roayah,”
For chillul hashem only death is michaper,
but davening w/o a minyan the punishment isn’t as severe!!!!!!!!
Is it coincidental that this story on YW is in between 2 major tragedies??
We yidden don’t own the place,don’t rock the boat!!
I’m not sure what everyones problem on this board is. The Sloatsburg rest area is a public rest area. According to the first amendment my rights to freely assemble and practice my religion cannot be violated. Hence any ten Jews who want to form a minyan can do so without interference. It is in the Thruway Authority’s best interest to designate an area for mincha, otherwise the rest area itself will be swamped. If they go ahead and close down the mincha area they cannot legally stop anyone from praying in front of Mcdonalds, which is exactly what will happen. That will not be a Chillul Hashem in any way shape or form. It jus wont be very good for Mcdonalds business.
Freedom of religion does not allow you to park yourself at will to pray and congregate. If you do that they may arrest you and see if the judge feels you are entitled to break rules because you want to pray here and now. Why not block the whole highway, its your freedom!
The rest area is by definition a place of assembly, If you can assemble for your personal needs the
government has no right to tell you you cannot assemble to daven. Of course your car has to be parked legally just like it has to be parked legally in front of shul. The mere fact that I am a Jew and practice my religion does not constitute a Chillul Hashem. If any policeman or state judge feels otherwise they are going to be on the wrong side of a Federal Lawsuit.
#18
Good point.
PS Just because we have a RIGHT does not change the chillul H” aspect.
On the other hand we are wasting our time, because some people don’t care about others alltogether.
The people selling cholent are most likely not reading this article. As a matter of fact, I would assume that the majority of the ‘yeshivish’ world who makes their way upstate in the summer does not go online and read this stuff. Are the authorities using any other means of getting their point accross?
#3 what’s this aggresivnes why arrest this is your brothers how could you say something like that
Pinay,
I’m no consitutional scholar, but it seems apparent to me that the Bill of Right’s Right of Assembly does not give anyone the right to panhandle or litter; it does not allow for commercial enterprises on public property; it does not allow people to congregate where they pose a possible safety concern for themselves or others; it does not allow people to use a parking lot which is designated for the express purpose of using the facilities within a building for any other purpose.
I don’t know where Hashem wants me to daven. But I do know that anything but davening there is an outrage.
Art, but you can daven by the picnic tables or the common areas, litter has nothing to do with davening and should be enforced by the TA, panhandling I believe is protected by the first amendment.
response to Pinay (#20).
1) Illegal Parking
2) Littering
3) Loitering
4) panhandling
5) selling without a vendors permit
6) not collecting/remitting sales tax
7) possible health code violations
regarding the best interests of the thryway authority – WRONG! the best interests of the thruway authority is to keep a safe clean rest area for all people and to see that people are abiding the laws of the land (not one of these laws impedes our rights to practice our religion.
the best interests of the people stopping there is as was stated in a previous post (#4) – Doven before you leave / when you get there or at a Shul along the way.
Move to eretz Yisroel where we tolerate anything they want to do, any mess they want to leave around, and no tax on sidewalk vendors or religious transactions. etc…
same for Kaporos. Or even cow shchita in their backyards or wine making in their living room, barefoot. Everything goes.
Bekitzur… A Yiddishe Medina without too much halocho. Great for all.
— pinay #20:
1) I’m not sure if freedom of religion lets you assemble and practice religion in public places where it interferes with others.
2) Any ten people who gather at one place may be considered a public demonstration which needs a permit.
— And to the post in general:
I think someone should act there as a shul gabay either volunteerly or maybe even paid by the Thruway Authority (our tolls and taxes), and the gabay should be in charge of keeping the place clean and peddler free.
It’s very nice to post the warning here but what makes you think that Yeshivaworld readers are the ones traveling the Thruway? What would make more sense is to post huge warning signs at the Mincha stop in every language. (unless that’s illegal as well.)
jews never had it so good, maybe start reading about how jews lived not so long ago and you will understand that being under the radar and inconspicuous is not only advisable but the proper torah attitude. as far as derech eretz is concerned you either have it or you don’t. some people were just nurtured in a “darwinian-survival of the fittest enviornment” they wont change they have to be controlled.
Isnt that the reason we have yeshiva institutions and Torah homes to teach DERECH ERETZ, its not like a ‘musical talent’, that you are born with or without. Growth in spiritually and mitzvah observing is a cataylist to deeper understanding and actions in the realm of DERECH ERETZ. C”MON no excuses for everything!!!
Pinay, the fact that you think this is your RIGHT is precisely the CAUSE of the problem!
A) No its not your RIGHT, this facility is a privilege, owed entirely to a very gracious gesture from the Thruway Authority. No where in the constitution does it state that they need to give us a clean, comfortable, and respectable place to gather and Daven at will.
B) You may choose to Daven in front of McDonlads, however GATHERING in front of Mcdonalds for davening or anything else has nothing to do with freedom of expression. In addition, if an officer asked you to move and you didn’t you’d get charged with civil disobediance.
C) The threat of a federal lawsuit is meritless, empty, and childish.
D) Panhandling is not only NOT protected by freedom of expression???!?!? its ILLEGAL in public places such as …REST AREAS….bus stops and train stations.
E) Its still a CHILLUL HASHEM to be thoughtless and insensitive in such a public place, even if it were your right, and even if it means that you nebach have to go from brooklyn to the mountains without eating some chulent!
F) We need to appreciate and admire all the TA does for us including there tolerance and patience. The only mistake they made is to give another SUPER FINAL warning, because unfortunatly nothing is going to change. [see #37 and #38]. Those who have Derech Eretz and common sense didn’t cause the problem, and those who don’t will most likely not change because that takes hard work and ofcourse its their RIGHT not to do it.
I am just as angry as everyone else here about this problem, but compare the apolegetic tone of this article from today’s New York Times as to the outrageous behavior of Muslims when it comes to washing their feet. Yes, washing their feet in public sinks (gross!) causing the sinks to separate from the wall. Just some perspective. I highly doubt that if Orthodox Jews were doing this that the article would be so calm about it.
“DEARBORN, Mich. — When pools of water began accumulating on the floor in some restrooms at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, and the sinks pulling away from the walls, the problem was easy to pinpoint. On this campus, more than 10 percent of the students are Muslims, and as part of ritual ablutions required before their five-times-a-day prayers, some were washing their feet in the sinks.
The solution seemed straightforward. After discussions with the Muslim Students’ Association, the university announced that it would install $25,000 foot-washing stations in several restrooms.”
#28
Mr. Flatbusher, Who says it can’t be a golus issue and a lack of derech eretz? Are they mutually exclusive? Why, you can add chillul Hashem, Loshon Horoh, talking by davening, and I’m sure we can find other aveiros that are being perpetuated there. Also, are we not in Golus in Eretz Yisroel as well? I don’t think the biggest Zionist thinks that the Geulah and Moshiach has arrived. Again when will we realize we’re in Golus and 55 MPH is not an anti-semitic law? 🙂
Why do we need warnings?
And WHY do we need special treatment?
If visitors were observed engaging in selling food or raffle tickets in any other picnic area, what would be the outcome?
Maybe 1) the rules would be very obviously and clearly posted 2) the violators would be warned and 3) violators would be issued a ticket or summons.
But would the turnpike authority threaten to close the picnic area?
As for the issue of the ‘mess’ left behind, take a look at the video on cbsnewyork.com.
What I saw there was a very full trash can with more trash on top or alongside.
What would any family do if they were stopping for a break on a long trip, and the trash cans were full?
Would they get back in their car and continue without stopping to eat?
There may be a lot less trash when the laws against peddling food are enforced, but the solution to overly full trash cans are to put out more trash cans, or to empty them more frequently.
Would the turnpike authority handle it, instead, by threatening to close the picnic area?
Why the special treatment?
I do see that a group that stands out from the crowd, as we do, needs to be careful to behave properly and not attract negative press, but this seems to be blown up way out of proportion.
I refer again to the CBS news video:
They sent an investigative reporter with a hidden camera for their report. Whose idea was that?
They mentioned that the restataurant and concession owners at the rest stop felt that they were unfairly losing business to the chulent vendors. Are they really that naive, or are they just bothered by the parking spaces that are filled up with visitors that are not their customers? They can’t complain about the families that stop at their area with their own picnic baskets, so they are taking it out on the group that looks visibly different.
Again, we do not need special treatment.
Address the violations, and stop with the threats.
Negotiations are underway with Nathan’s between several Kosher meat companies and Hashgochas, to become kosher there and the manager will offer Cholent all week! This should start by summer 08
The TA is a government agency, they cannot restrict the free practice of religion, if I want to pray I can do so in any common area including the picnic tables in front of Mcdonalds. If the designated area is closed the rest area will be swamped with people who gather to daven and there is nothing the TA can do about it. This is not a Chillul Hashem, this is America and you can not pass an ordinence against it. Panhandling is protected by the first amendment see http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=18841
Pinay, Is it parve? may i make a suggestion, add flanken and sales will increase
once again pinay – go ahead show them you can do what you want, when you want and how you want! why not gather 9 friends and stand directly in front of he entry to mcdonalds and doven a nice 45 minute long Mincha. After all you have rights!!! — you should know that with rights comes responsibilites – treating others with respect and showing appreciation to our host country is one of the responsibilites.
next comment is directed not only to pinay:
re: panhandling or giving tzedakah – if the area is left open to doven, as everyone here knows it is a good thing to give tzedakah before tefilla — plan ahead put a pushka in your car and drop a coin in it before heading to the minyon.
mdlevine you have yet to explain how davening mincha is not treating others with respect, I didn’t say BLOCK the entrance to McDonalds I said the use of the COMMON areas which are part of the general rest area. If your embarrassed to be a Yid gezunter heit but don’t foist your insecurities on the rest of klal yisroel. Just because yenner goy or frei yid (or from the looks of this blog even frummer yid) is disturbed doesn’t make it wrong or show any lack of appreciation. This is a public area with equal rights of use to all segments of society. If any business rented space it was adaata d’hachi ( I’m referring to davening not the sale of food).
“…It is in the Thruway Authority’s best interest to designate an area for mincha, otherwise the rest area itself will be swamped. If they go ahead and close down the mincha area they cannot legally stop anyone from praying in front of Mcdonalds, which is exactly what will happen…”
Pinay guess who said those words — you! Yes you (post #20) clearly stated that no one can leagally stop you from praying in front of mcdonalds.
Additionally, at times, I tell my children that it is in their best interest to do such and such – they understand that if not there will be consequences. I think that you comments of “it is in the TAs best interests to…” is essentially telling them: Listen up or else! that my friend is nonsense. it is in everyones best interest to doven – the TA has no obligation to provide us with an area to do so (even in common areas). b/t/w, if it is a common area (I’ve never dovened there so I am not familiar with it), than what would happen if a lady wanted to doven there with all the fellows (remember the Monsey bus incident)- or what if someone wanted to start strumming a guitar next to the shaliach tzibbur – they have rights also. what if a non-Jewish panhandler started pestering everyone for money, or an immodestly dressed woman wanted to lounge there — they have rights to.
facts on the table:
1) everyone must Doven
2) people who leave too late to doven in the bungelow, can doven before they leave
3) people who leave too early to doven before they leave, can doven in the bungelow.
4) or… there are several places prior to sloatsburg to doven if you are coming via 17 or 287 in NJ, you can go a few miles to Monsey and find a minyon and plenty of stores selling cholent. via 87, same thing – get off find a minyon/cholent and continue on.
5) or… continue on to Kiryas Yoel there are minyonim and most likely cholent there also.
regarding your comments re: my insecurities or embarrasment of being a Yid – complete nonsense – so I guess to you it is either we stick it in their faces or we’re embarrased of who we are — utter foolish.
I have said enough on this subject.
mdlevine
a)I was referring to the picnic area in front of Macdonalds
b) The only reasons you have given seem to smack of insecurity. Most Americans would see people praying and not take umbrage at it.
c) My rights of assembly in a public place include the right to exclude anyone from my assembly (remember the courts upheld the right to exclude the mishkav zochorniks from st. paddys parade).
d) If people are dressed immodestly there are halachic eitzos on how to avoid those problems
e) You just don’t get it, Frum people have a right to daven mincha in a rest area no matter what Thruway Authority says.
pinay,
Come on, use some seichel:
There’s the way it is & then there’s the way it ought to be.
The way it ought to be: Each citizen should be able to fully excercize his legal rights & no one should say “boo” or be upset.
The way it is: The very nature of people is to be zenophobic. We all get nervous / anxious when we see people behaving in ways that are radically diff. than what we are used to.
This is unfortunate, but it is the reality.
Now, as realists, we need to ask ourselves if we think it’s worth it to undertake a certain action when we fully know the consequences of those actions.
Is it worth the fallout or not?
It seems that most gedolei yisroel over the course of golus have taken the approach that we are to act b’tzinnah in our avodas ha-shem as much as possible. While diff. communities take that to diff. conclussions, it seems that all gedolei yisroel have acted unanimously in that manner.
I just can’t help but think that this “in your face avodas ha-shem” has more in common with the approaches of:
1) non-jewish minority cultural pride leaders
2) Jews like R.M. Kahaneh & R.A. Weiss
3) Lubavitch
I can’t imagine anyone from differing camps than those being ok with this approach.
Again, this isn’t an issue of if it’s legal, it’s an issue of it’s wise.
BTW Pinay,
Where did you stand regarding the Menorah fiasco in the Seattle airport last Chanukah?
I think that will better help us understand your position.
well, i guess I more to say.
pinay wrote:
“My rights of assembly in a public place include the right to exclude anyone from my assembly (remember the courts upheld the right to exclude the mishkav zochorniks from st. paddys parade).” the paddy people need a permit to march and without permission granted, they can not march.
regarding just not getting it – well, I guess we all can’t be a smart as you (as you think you are)
Mdlevine your a genius, so I don’t have to explain it to you, my explanation is for everyone else. For a parade you need a permit but to daven in public you do not need a permit. My rights to exclude others from my assembly are not contingent on a permit I can exclude others from MY assembly whether or not I have exclusive control of the domain or not. The permit just grants exclusive rights to the venue, but within the venue even without a permit my freedom of assembly allows me to exclude others. Those others also have a right to form their own assembly, but they cannot force me to accept themselves in mine.
#58, Pinay, your assertion is wrong because you may NOT have a parade without a permit whether or not you want “exclusive rights to the venue”. Perhaps with a permit you MAY also get exclusivity, but thats only part of the story. Besides for which, if its an assembly you’d need a permit, if its not an assembly than its not an entity at all, in which case your not a baaylim on anything to exclude anyone from.
In any event, where do you find the right to exclude anyone from the public picnic area just because 10 people decided to picnic (or Daven) there????
you can stop people from entering your personal domain. you can stop people from entering membership required organization. you can stop people from taking advantage of your legally obtained permit to congregate (be it a park permit for a picnic or a march permit).
you cannot stop someone from standing in a public place b/c you want to gather other people there unless you have a permit issued by the authority in control of the area to temporarily use the premises for your gathering. As I am sure you are aware a permit can be revoked at any time by the issueing authority if the terms and conditions of the permit are not upheld by the person(s) who have the permit
Essentially public domain means owned by nobody. lack of ownership means not having the right
to exclude others.
with this in mind – the public rest area is open to all people at all times of operation. anyone can stand in any area they want at any time that they choose. if 10 men want to stand their and doven – kol haKavod – I wish them all the best AND I support their right to do so.
if immodest or obnoxious people want to stand amongst them or a lady wants to stand there and pray also – they have the right in America – they can be asked to leave, but not forced to leave. I would NOT stand with them and support their right, but they do have the right.
the real question: why put yourself in such a position – go to a Shul and doven in an environment that is much more conducive to dovenen.
“In any event, where do you find the right to exclude anyone from the public picnic area just because 10 people decided to picnic (or Daven) there????”
CoffeeKup I can’t exclude them from the picnic area but I can exclude them from my picnic table.
MDLevine was asserting that excluding an isha from minyan in a public place was violating that isha’s rights. He compared it to an incident on a public bus. However you don’t have to be a groise chacham to be mechalek between a bus and a large open area. Additionally there it can be argued the bus company was violating their charter by actively sanctioning such a policy. But all this is a red herring, I have yet to hear of an Isha feeling slighted or even of attempting to join a minyan in a public area in America.
I am commenting ahead of time since all the chachomim out there are going to argue with me about excluding people from a picnic table. An the answer is YES you can there is reasonableness of use on such an area that the courts will theoretically rule that such a rule applies. I said theoretically because normal people recognize that it is just about inconceivable that such a case would reach the courts.
The only people who would vigorously argue such a case would be the idiots who think its a Chillel Hashem to daven btzibur in a public area.
Even if thery close it, they will re-open it after a few people get killed because they stopped by the same guy who pull off to the side of the road before the exit, to buy chulent.
My advice? “Le Briute” makes MONTHS OLD chulent that you could heat on the seat while you’re driving! (Keep it away from kids while cooking.) It gets really hot and it’s not just from last night. IT’s FROM MONTHS AGO!
Pinay,
You never responded to me.
This isn’t an issue of if it’s legal, it’s an issue of if it’s wise.
DO you think this is wise?
Also, where did you stand on the Seattle menorah fiasco last Chanukah (or better yet on the entire menorah in the public square issue)?
This would help us all better understand you.
amcm, explain to me why its unwise who are you ticking off, Taco Bell?, most American citizens are tolerant of other religions and faiths and wouldn’t consider the sight of people praying an affront, even if there are some Jew haters here this is not Poland or Russia. Your more likely to offend a frei Yid than a goy, and that probably has to do with THEIR insecurities.
Your attempts to group this issue with a menorah display is completely off base. What do PRIVATE citizens praying in a public area have to do with a display of religious paraphernalia by a GOVERNMENT entity?
Pinay,
This is an age old issue.
Is public Avodas HaShem by Jews while we are not in our land a good idea or not.
I’m not going to spend time explaining the position of the overwhelming consensus of the Gedolai Yisroel who have already given us direction on this issue.
They held we should do our avodah B’tzinnah.
Those who argued include(d):
1) R. Avi Weiss
2) R. M. Kahane
3) Chabad
Unless you identify with one of those groups, this all should be a non issue for you.
The Menorah debacle has everything to do with this issue. It is another example of short-sightedness by someone who thinks he understands how we ought to conduct ourselves in golus better than generations of gedolai yisroel have.
You reluctance to see that combined with your reluctance to adhere to the directives of generations of our leaders seem to indicate that you identify with one of the 3 groups listed above.
If that is the case, it explains much about your positions here.
Pinay, just remember, just because something is legal does not mean that it is wise. Debacles occur when well meaning people confuse the two.
Just ask your friend in Seattle.
amcm, Boruch Hashem klal yisrael is not abandoned and we have people like you who are able to be midameh milsa lmilsah and tell us what true daas torah is in these situatons. However I must ask my Rosh Yeshiva who is a member of the Moetzes and whom I have accompanied to various public places including “gasp” rest stops on the highway and Airport terminals and have assisted in actively organizing a minyan with him in such “provocative” places, how he reconciles allowing that while simultaneously opposing Avi Weiss demonstrating against the Polish Government.
pinay,
I see that some progress has been made.
No you at least agree that knowing what to do in this situation requires a sh’eilas chocham.
Good. Please ask your rosh yeshiva. I’m glad to see that you are willing to be mevateil your daas to a talmid chochom. I wouldn’t have imagined that possibility based on what you’ve written until now.