Many people are in total shock at some of the goings on in the Catskills this summer. I will not go into the details. Suffice it to say that hundreds of our teenagers – boys and girls – were enticed to engage in activities that are far from what their parents and teachers consider acceptable, and far from what we have a right to expect from Yeshiva and Bais Yaakov products. While there are many reasons for it and no easy or simple solutions, we must be very careful not to add to the problem by forbidding everything without providing a satisfactory kosher replacement.
The Yetzer Hora of today is not the one of yesterday or the one our grandparents had to deal with. Today we have television, movies, CDs, DVD’s, Internet, videos, certain type cell phones, and music that are extremely attractive and contain more filth than ever before. They are everywhere and they can easily be brought into our homes without detection. Their influence and message is so powerful and seductive that they have penetrated even the best homes. We are dealing with a mighty foe whose magnetic power of attraction is difficult to resist. Saying “No” doesn’t always work. Unless we provide our children with a kosher alternative to it all, we are asking for trouble.
While in the past, summer camps may have been considered a luxury and kids could be kept in the city, nowadays camps are a lifesaver. Most summer camps provide kids with a kosher outlet for their pent up energies with a balanced program of learning and sports. There is Color War and BOG. There are hikes and trips. Children are kept so busy that they don’t have the time or desire to look for non-kosher means of entertainment.
Many years ago, Pirchei Agudas Yisroel used to organize trips to Washington, Baltimore, and Toronto. Motzoei Shabbos there was learning along with game nights, and concerts. There was the famous Pirchei Choir that put out beautiful records and tapes that brought countless hours of delightful Jewish entertainment into thousands of homes. This was all done in order to keep children busy during their free time so they shouldn’t have to go looking elsewhere. It was important to show children at a very early age that the Torah is not just restrictions, but that Shabbos as well as the rest of the week can be a time of constructive joy and pleasure. Happy laughter and family voices in the home will keep more kids off the streets at night than the strictest curfew.
I still remember when the Pirchei Agudas Yisrael put on a play and concert more than forty years ago in Montauk Junior High School. ( The play was based on the book Family Aguilar. ) There were some who tried to convince the rabbonim to put a ban on it. Since I was the president of Pirchei at the time, Rabbi Moshe Sherer z.l, asked me to go down to the venerable gaon hador, Rabbi Moshe Fienstien z.t.l., to get his halachic opinion. Not only did he not ban it, but he gave it his blessings. He understood only too well the importance of giving the boys a kosher alternative; otherwise they would soon find their pleasures elsewhere. One must be very careful before imposing restrictions. “Restrict everything and everything becomes permitted,” is what my father z.t.l. once said. When some tried to ban the Miami Boys Choir Concert in N.Y. and tried to get Rabbi Pam z.t.l.s’ signature as well as that of the Mirer Rosh Yeshiva to ban it, they both refused to sign.
A number of years ago, Rabbi Motty Katz of JEP and I organized a Chanuka trip to Washington on the two days that yeshivas give off for Chanuka vacation. Thanks to Mr. Yisroel Lefkowitz and others who helped subsidize part of the trip, we were able to charge only $20, which included an overnight stay in a nice motel. We were only able to take along 100 boys even though many more boys wanted to come along. I received a very nasty letter in the mail from a prominent rosh yeshiva accusing me of causing bitul Torah and admonishing me for organizing the trip. I very respectfully replied that it wasn’t I who was causing any bittul Torah but rather the yeshivas that gave the kids off for two days without providing them with something positive to do. I told him that if he wanted, I would show him where some of his students are hanging out during this time. I never received a reply.
I give great credit to the Mirer Yeshivah in Yerushalayim that has realized the great problem of what happens when their bocurim have nothing to do during bein hazmanim. The yeshiva organizes trips at subsidized prices which take their talmidim around Eretz Yisroel. If only other yeshivas would follow their example, many tragedies would be avoided.
When sports and concerts are forbidden, and all forms of kosher entertainment are off limits, we are asking for trouble. If our kids can’t find a place to vent their energy within a kosher environment, then they will find it elsewhere. In a time of war even the Torah itself permitted one to marry a captive non-Jewish girl under certain conditions. Chazal explain the logic behind this law. The Torah understood that a person is only human and therefore in this instance, while fighting a war, it gave him some leeway. The Gemora tells us that for everything the Torah forbade it gave us something similar that was permitted. Today’s war with the Yetzer Horah is far greater than ever before.
But in every generation we have the likes of Doeg and Achitofel who misled great people such as Shaul and Avshalom with falsehoods and lies that caused them to try to kill Dovid. Doeg even succeeded in getting Shaul to kill all the Kohanim in the city of Nov. This shows how falsehoods can be spread, how easily they are believed, and the terrible damage that can result. Even the greatest of the great are vulnerable to such camouflaged slander and can be misled by advisors they trust. Just turn to Shmuel II chapter 16 and read the story of how Dovid who knew better than anyone else of the great dangers of an evil tongue was himself taken in by Tziva who fabricated a false story about Mefiboshes. If even the greatest of the great can be misled, then we’d all better be very careful and constantly on our guard least we too fall into the same trap.
Some have organized special activities and places for these “at risk kids” to get together under proper supervision, but this is not the real solution. The problem must be addressed long before young people reach the “at risk” stage. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If the money we spent on rehabilitation where to be spent on prevention, we’d get far more for our money, and fewer people who need intensive intervention
It must be clearly noted that despite all that was said, one is required to follow the ruling of our sages even when they say “Right is left and left is right.” Nowadays when there is no Sanhedrin, one must seek a leading posek and follow his ruling on all matters and not go “posek hopping.” This applies not only in the above case but in all other areas as well. There are some disagreements among our leading poskim in Hilchos Shabbos which can be an isur sekilah. One can’t pick and choose stringencies from one or leniencies from another. (Gemora ) The Agudas Yisroel follows the ruling of the Moetzes Gedolai HaTorah. Others can decide on their posek whom they wish to follow. But whoever it is, the p’sak must be followed even if it hurts.
Yes, there are legitimate concerns that must be addressed in order to make sure that concerts are conducted in a true Yiddish atmosphere and flavor. Performers should not be Jewish rock or rap singers and the music should not imitate today’s street hip-hop culture as some performers unfortunately do. Sadly, I’ve gone to frum weddings where the music and dancing felt like one was in a discothèque with only the flashing lights missing. Roshei yeshivas and rabbonim danced in the middle of the circle having no idea as what type of music they were dancing to. I hope no one is going to ban music at weddings because of this, but rather the m’sader kidushin or rabbonim should meet with the band leaders as well as the mechutonim to rectify this outrage. Serious concerns must be discussed between the concert organizers and rabbonim beforehand. Instead of seeking to ban these concerts, we must make sure that they are a kiddush Shem Shomayim. Music has a powerful effect upon the listener and we must ensure that it follows in the footsteps and style of Dovid Hamelech the “n’im zemiros Yisroel,” to whose words our music is often put.
We definitely need our gedolim to guide us, and if we come to them with sincere requests to teach us to run activities al pi Torah, they would respond wisely and constructively. We should no longer leave the field open to those few agitators and connivers who choose to deprive our young people of positive outlets. For if we close the doors to that which is permitted, they’ll unfortunately, soon find other places to fill the void!
© 2007 Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum.
(Thanks for allowing Yeshivaworld to publish this important article.)
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119 Responses
Omain V’Omain
אמן ואמן
Read my lips. NOTHING WILL CHANGE !
Is he questioning the rabbis that banned these concerts?
Typically Brilliant! Thank you Rabbi Teitelbaum. A copy should be mailed out to every Principled Principal, A S A P!
We’ve already lost too many souls with fanaticism. Assur, assur, assur.
Truer words have never been spoken. Fabulous. We need this even more in Eretz Yisrael, where playing ball, casually, among friends, is considered avodah zara (literally). So instead, the boys who have absolutely nothing to do, kick cats, burn garbage, go to hafganot, beat each other up, hang up defamatory signs… the ONLY acceptable activity for the kids to do outside of school is avos ubanim on Shabbos!
Thank you Rabbi Teitelbaum for being a voice in the wilderness.
This is very important and very well put, but it only deals with the problem of group entertainment, such as concerts and sports events, what about private entertainment? As the rav mentioned, a big problem is the negative content of music, movies, video games and such things that are causing this negative influence to appear when a kids at home. Not every kid wants to go on a big trip (I used to hate them in grade school) and not every family wants to send their kid to camp all summer, so what kosher alternatives exist for personal entertainment?
Great article written by a great man!
2 questions though; What is Rabbi Teitelbaum suggesting people do with their children on a day to day basis? He writes about the bad influences of the internet etc. but what should a child do today on all of the free time (which they deserve to have) on a regular day when we cannot go on a trip or sing in a choir?
Also, is it just me or do you get the sense that perhaps this article took a (probably unintentional) swing at the Gedolim who came out against concerts? Are we to think that the author feels that the Gedolim are out of touch? Chas V’sholom to think that.
Thank you Rabbi Teitelbaum for this GREAT article,
well put and well overdue.
Unfortunately I think our generation is way farther then one can Imagine
very well put
Please forward this letter to all of our Roshei Yeshiva (even in lakewood) I do not think they read the Yeshiva World
I have been involved in a few of these cases and can not seem to convince the “big RABBIS” about this
not every bochur is capable of learning from 13 yrs old and on for a whole day without any secular studies or outlets as Rabbi Teitelbaum has so beautifully described
Well said. Now I know again why R’ Eli had such success as both my Rebbe in the 4th grade back in the early 70’s and in his camp in EY.
Rabbi Teitelbaum & Rush Limbaugh – always right
on the money!
Yashe Koach R’ Eli. Well written kedarkecha!. The message between the lines was even more powerful than the words themselves.
However, I find it curious that after Rabbi Teitelbaum wrote so eloquently about the differences between the challenges faced today and those of yesteryear, he then bemoans contemporary Jewish music as being an “outrage”. I am not familiar with any halachic source that deliniates the parameters of acceptable versus unacceptable bass, tempo and the overall musical “atmosphere and flavor.”
Music today is more lively than it was 20 or 30 years ago. That’s just a fact reflected in contemporary secular as well as frum culture. If we start coming out against music that is too lively and insist that our already repressed frum children be limited to Dveykus and Carlebach (as great as they are) we are simply setting oursevles up for yet another set of losing and ill advised battles.
Here’s a tough one. Why do we have a two month summer break JUST LIKE GOYIM? Ask your grandparents from Europe when summer break was. I believe the japanese have a 12 month school season, are they better than us? The reason it will never work though, is because the TEACHERS WANT THE TIME OFF. Except in those chassidishe mosdos that really care about learning where there is no summer break.
Dear Rabbi Teitelbaum,
I don’t think the gedolim feel that concerts for chreidi people is appropriate in Eretz Hakodesh.
Having thousands sitting and clapping and enjoying music(not in the couse of doing a Mitzva… Wedding etc) post churben Bais Hamikdush is VERY UNAPPROPRIATE!! See Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim)!
Your point is valid about giving outlets to our young ones. However the Shulchan Oruch MUST be Followed at ALL Times.
This is a great article by Reb Eli, positing that there must be kosher alterantives, and that ‘if you ban everything, everything is permissible’.
However, he is way off mark on thetopic of ‘seperate seating’ concerts. I wonder if he has ever attended one, or at least in recent years. Take Israel, for example, where Rabbi Teitelbaums famous camps take place every year. There what happens on the sidelines is the very gruesome behavior that he describes at the outset of his article as taking place in the Catskills! No less! Literally, gilui arayos and zenus takes place there.
I cant imgaine that the good Rabbi wishes to condone this! If he really beleives that its ‘fabrications’, I’ll be glad to take him around during the upcoming Sukkos Cocert season to see for himself.
1) Not ALL the gedolim signed that kol koreh. There are many gedolim and well respected rababnim that don’t agree with it.
2) Is someone here somehow saying Rabbi Teitelbaum is NOT GOOD ENOUGH to comment on a current dilemma facing klal yisroel?
3) I commend Rabbi Teitelbaum for writing an brilliant and on the money article. I wish more were like him. He’s a shining light in a dark time.
Great article. I guess the truth hurts. We can’t continue to ban everything without a replacement. Some believe the more you are “machmor” and the more you ban – the frummer you are. Not true – you are closing off all doorways. And why can’t a family go to a circus on Chol Hamoed???? We need to chill and have outlets…..
matzahlocaol101 (14)
You are so right … BUT NOTHING WILL CHANGE!!!
matzahlocaol101 – which is why here in england we only have 4 weeks!!!
Well written , May this should be a topic at a future convention! Before anyone criticizes, I think they must admit that they agree with the content of the article and that he did write to pick a posek and follow that psak. I also agree with the comment that the summer vacation is to long but the criticizim on all non-chasidish yeshivos is not based on fact and unnecessary.
The Gedolim who issued the psak obviously disagree with R’ Eli as to what inappropiately occurs at these concerts. From first-hand experiance, there IS what to be concerned about.
For those who think that Rabbi Teitelbaum is questioning the Gedolim who banned anything, or is taking ‘a swipe’ at them, you missread the article. Please go back and re-read it. The people who he condemed is not the Gedolim who made the ban but rather the people who fed the Gedolim with lies and falsehoods (his words) that caused the Gedolim to make the bans under false pretenses.
As far as the Gedolim being or not being out of touch, of course they are not out of touch. But they are not neviim. Their ‘in touch’ in many cases is based upon the reports they receive from their agents or confidants. If they get false or misleading information from these people, then their decisions are based on, as Rabbi Teitelbaum said, lies and falsehoods. Rabbi Teitelbaum also made very clear that although a ban may have come from this type of thing, one must still listen to HIS OWN posek.
I had a thought that came out of reading this article. We know that Torah is Emes and Emes is a very strong foundation. Sheker is a very weak foundation, however, as we are taught from meforshim. Maybe these bans are held to ridicule or question precicely because they are founded on falsehood, rather on emes. Not that the Gedolim are uttering falsehood c”v, but that those who keep them informed are not being truthfull, as Rabbi Teitelbaum notes. Thus, many of these bans are built on a foundation of falsehood and are therefore doomed from the start.
Boruch Hashem, Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum dropped a badly needed bomb! It’s about time someone realized it and spoke up!
Everything with moderation. Not Assur assur assur.
Thank you Reb Eli!! May you be blessed with arychas yomim veshonim for all you’ve done and continue to do for the klal as well as the prat!!
I fondly remember Perchei “back in the day” – it was a great experience!! I remember the learning and game rooms on Motzei Shabbos, the trips (it was such a treat), the melava malkahs, syum misnayous and who could forget all the contests and great prizes!! I wont forget the time I was a little boy at a pirchei melava Malka in the mirrer yeshiva, when I won a 110 camera!! This excitement died down when the organizers who put their heart and soul into it, got married, and moved on. No one took it over with their passion, and energy….
What happened? The frum population BE’H has grown so much, what happened to the Perchei life we lived? Why can’t our kids get a taste of what we had? We were so happy with a few jelly beans and jelly fish. On a lucky week we got peanut chews, and in the summer we got a freeze pop!! Obviously this will never satisfy today’s kids, but some good wholesome fun is still a viable option! A trip, a contest (with more chasuva prizes), a game room (maybe with the fancy playstations) and videos with supervision on motzei shabbos after learning – melava malkas, syums etc. is still a practicable option even in todays hi-tech spoiled-kid age.
Were missing boucrim who can give their time and soul without being chastised why there not “learning” – why are they ‘wasting their time not ‘shtiging’ in the beis medrish, and are looked down upon as a perchei leader.
Yes and some times they will have to miss a seder to arrange a trip or other activities. BUT, NO yeshiva will allow its bouchrim to get involved… they claim its ‘bitul torah’
The same is true with sleep-away camp counselors.
Rav Pam ZT’L gave 2 months off in the summer to encourage his beis medrish boucrim to go be counselors in our camps!
MOST beis medrish yeshivas (with some few exclusions like Torah Vodass) WONT ALLOW THEIR BOUCRIM TO LEAVE THE ZMAN EARLY TO GO BE A COUNSELOR IN CAMP!!! So I ask you, who will be our children’s counselors?????!!!! Who will keep our kids busy giving them a fun kosher outlet throughout the year????!!!
WHO??!!
Rebmoish,
your nos.15 post says;
‘I don’t think the gedolim feel that concerts for chreidi people is appropriate in Eretz Hakodesh.
Having thousands sitting and clapping and enjoying music(not in the couse of doing a Mitzva… Wedding etc) post churben Bais Hamikdush is VERY UNAPPROPRIATE!! See Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim)!’
Do you think the Gedolim would feel that the alternative ChV WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE? For instance, having th e young people seeking pleasure by other means whicH are TOTALLY assur.
PLEASE STOP STIFLING OUR YOUTH;
Concerts which are given in Israel are obviously approved by Dass Torah OR ELSE THEY WOULDNT TAKE
PLACE!
Thank you Rabbi Teitelbaum, finally a voice of reason!
I would like to understand what Rabbi Teitelbaum is saying:
Is Rabbi Teitelbaum equating the Gedolei HaDor with the 250 Roshei Sanhedrin who were maktir ketores at the time of Korach?
Is Rabbi Teitelbaum saying that the Gedole HaDor (HaRav Elyashiv Shlit”a, HaRav Shtinman Shlit”a, the Belezer Rebbe Shlit”a, the Gerrer Rebbe Shlit”a, etc.) are wrong?
#20–I know how you read the article, and I agree with your pshat in WHAT it says. However, the second we start saying that the Gedolim are being mis-led into putting their names to something, we effectively invalidate any kol koreh before it’s printed.
Given what Rabbi Teitelbaum asserts, wouldn’t it be better to take up the issue with the Rabbanim SHlit”a themselves and seek their guidance rather than print an article that says we should ignore their ban?
To Frumblogger- your words are words of wisdom! “Were missing boucrim who can give their time and soul without being chastised why there not “learning” – why are they ‘wasting their time not ‘shtiging’ in the beis medrish, and are looked down upon as a perchei leader.
Yes and some times they will have to miss a seder to arrange a trip or other activities. BUT, NO yeshiva will allow its bouchrim to get involved… they claim its ‘bitul torah’ “
However, I find it curious that after Rabbi Teitelbaum wrote so eloquently about the differences between the challenges faced today and those of yesteryear, he then bemoans contemporary Jewish music as being an “outrage”. I am not familiar with any halachic source that deliniates the parameters of acceptable versus unacceptable bass, tempo and the overall musical “atmosphere and flavor.”
Not only is that true, but more so, if you come out against Jewish “rock” music, then we should also come out against Chabad nigunim, Sephardi music, etc. Jewish music has always reflected the musical culture of where it was written. There is no way around that. There is no such thing as purely Jewish music, it’s always been influenced by whatever area it’s from. There is a reason a beautiful Chabad niggun sounds similiar to Russian folk songs and why the Spehardi niggun sounds like an Arabic song. So now Jewish music is reflecting the American music culture of jazz/rock music. Is that so terrible?
“frumblogger”
A number of years ago there was a meeting with Roshey Yeshivas & camp directors in the Mir Yeshiva (NY), regarding summer camps & counselors.
After the meeting one of the Roshey Yishiva went over to Rabbi Kaufman (Agudah) to let him know his “yingle” will be going to his camp & to make sure he gets a “good” counselor. To that Rabbi K responded “Sure, he’ll get the BEST of the BUMS”!
After the Roshey Yishiva’s shock, Rabbi K went on to explain that if you don’t allow your boys to be counselors in camps the whole summer, I’m left with the ones you don’t want!
‘Here’s a tough one. Why do we have a two month summer break JUST LIKE GOYIM? Ask your grandparents from Europe when summer break was. I believe the japanese have a 12 month school season, are they better than us? The reason it will never work though, is because the TEACHERS WANT THE TIME OFF. Except in those chassidishe mosdos that really care about learning where there is no summer break.
Comment by matzahlocaol101 — September 5, 2007 @ 10:04’
In response
1) to why we have 2 months off just ‘like the goyim’-I dunno, why don’t you ask the Roshei Yeshiva who give off two months? Maybe they know more than you.
2)And what’s that baloney about the grandparents in Europe? Our grandparents in Europe, except for yechidim, went to work when they were 13 years old.
3)What’s wrong with giving teachers off? Are you a teacher that you are saying they don’t need time to recharge their batteries?
4)I like your snide comment about how only chassidishe mosdos care about learning. The last time I looked the Catskills were filled with Chassidishe camps, so what in the world are you talking about? Second of all, even if what you are saying is true, maybe it’s because the chassidim have almost no secular studies so obviously they don’t really need a break.
‘The same is true with sleep-away camp counselors.
Rav Pam ZT’L gave 2 months off in the summer to encourage his beis medrish boucrim to go be counselors in our camps!
MOST beis medrish yeshivas (with some few exclusions like Torah Vodass) WONT ALLOW THEIR BOUCRIM TO LEAVE THE ZMAN EARLY TO GO BE A COUNSELOR IN CAMP!!! So I ask you, who will be our children’s counselors?????!!!! Who will keep our kids busy giving them a fun kosher outlet throughout the year????!!!’
There is a well known story about a certain well known talmid chochom who had a grandchild in sleepaway camp. He came across the director of the camp and asked him something like ‘Nu, so what kind of counselors do you have?’. The director answered ‘Only bums’. So the talmid chochom asked, ‘what do you mean?’ He responded, “Well you don’t let any of your good boys go away and be counselors, so all we have are the bums’. I don’t know what happened after that.
Not so yeshivish,
Baruch Shekivanti!
“Restrict everything and everything becomes permitted,” Very well said.
Response to # 26:
Well the gedolim DON’T approve of concerts in Eretz Yisroel (thats the reason for R’ Teitelbaums article) but is happening AGAINST thier wishes. Outlets ARE deffinitly needed BUT they MUST BE according to SHULCHAN ARUCH!!!!
Response to # 29:
You write “So now Jewish music is reflecting the American music culture of jazz/rock music. Is that so terrible?”
YES This type of music brings out anamilistic behavior and PRIKOS OL AND KALOS ROSH!!!!
Thank u Rabbi Teitlebaum (my rebbe in elementary) and # 25. May H’ bless u to keep your unique combination of an open mind based on daas torah. This article like all the others u write are on target. It’s a shame that the frum population growth has so many problems, with which many are our own fault, not c’v the fault of Daas Torah.
Did secular studies help noah feldman? (I believe that’s the name of the former yeshiva student who went off the deep end and is now spouting off in the secular press about yiddishkeit.)
re Post #12.
your putting together of Rabbi Teitelbaum and an egomanical, pill popping, radio entertainer with no redeeming morals is highly inappropriate! you ought to be ashamed for such a posting!
i must say that this discussion is 10-15 yrs too late. pardon me for saying so but we need to worry about drugs and immorality, pple getting certain diseases (hamavin yavin). i couldn’t believe it when i heard about this on the radio. halevai music should be our only problem!!!
YES This type of music brings out anamilistic behavior and PRIKOS OL AND KALOS ROSH!!!!
Rubbish. Pure, reactionary rubbish. Music does not cause anything, people do. If the people listening to music are not prone to “animalistic behavior” there is absolutely no problem whatsoever. If they are, then you have a different problem alltogether.
37,
Get your facts straight please! Maybe they dont approve of them in YERUSHOLAYIM but in other parts of EY they HAVE been given and obviously approved. I cant see Bnei Torah performing aginsts the wishes of Rabonim,,,,
Theproblem is not just in EY but in Chuts Laaretz as well! Reb Moishe Feinstein once said that if the concerts are for TZEDAKA, then its no problem to go if there is separate seating etc.
I remember years ago in Camp Agudah, around the time when learning camps became more popular, Reb Yakov Kamenetzky came to camp to visit. Rabbi Kaufman, the head counselor asked him that all the good bochurim are going to the learning camps and we are losing all the good counselors. Reb Yakov replied, “Nu. vos zol min tun?”
Regarding today’s music. It’s straight from the goyisha rock groups. I took my kids to a concert in Queens College this past Chol Hamoed. They were actually break dancing like the —–‘s on the “other side of the tracks.” And the words they were singing to that dance was words that people cried when they went to the gas chambers. This is not just that today’s music is more leibedig than previous years. There is a serious issue here. In the good old days people would produce music from the heart, from inside out. Today they first see what will attract other people, and then they write it.
‘Did secular studies help noah feldman? (I believe that’s the name of the former yeshiva student who went off the deep end and is now spouting off in the secular press about yiddishkeit.) ‘
Huh??
It has become the new style of chinuch to blame the influences of the outside world for our problem. The arguments go something like this:
“Its because of the internet and videos that our children are going off the derech. We need to make a Lo Plug and assur everything so that there is a wider geder and no one will ‘be bitten’. Therefore, no videos, no internet, no outlets- make our kids learn more and be in shul in shabbos from the age of 3, force them to daven and learn 17 blatt by the time they’re in sixth grade and they’ll be so busy they wont have time for taa’vah.”
Now before you say, “that’s ridiculous, no one thinks that way,” look at our yeshivos and bais yaakovs. This is EXACTLY the path they are taking. They have gotten out of control with rules and chumros. They are also hoping that if they bombard our boys with dafim of gemara and girls with Navi, that they wont ever have time to even think about Hashkafa. Chas Veshalom a kid should ask why they have to learn Torah! We might actually have to know how to answer them properly! Chas Veshalom they should spend time learning basic Dikduk so they can actually read a Pasuk Chumash when they get into high school!(I wont even get into the issue of dress codes and uniforms which yanks the bechira right out of their hands.)
The problem with too many rules is much larger than our own Daled Amos:
We are so focused on blaming all of the outside influences on our children’s struggles that we don’t realize that we are taking away our responsibility and their bechira. We are basically teching them that we dont ever trust their decisions so it is our jobs as parents and rebbeim to make decisions for them.
Lets take movies for example:
It is our job to teach them not that movies are horrible and garbage but that many of them are very bad for us- that the ones that get our adrenaline rushing (pleasure) are davka the ones that are so dangerous. As such, we need to teach them to differentiate between Tumah and Tahara. Not all movies are created equal. Teach them that just because they saw “Finding Nemo”, it doesnt mean that “since we now watch movies, we might as well watch anything”.
The same goes for internet: Lets teach them that its a wonderful tool but very dangerous. If you choose not to have internet, give them piano lessons or art classes- dont just leave them at home alone with video games and expect them to do something productive. If you have internet, make rules when internet use is permissible. Put on filters for little kids, by all means. But if we teach our kids that Tatty needs a filter too, then we are teaching him that Tatty is like the child and has no control over himself and that he doesnt really know what he wants as a Frum Jew. Of course the Taavah is strong, and guidelines need to be set by the Family and its own Rav, but are we really solving the problem by avoiding the problem completely??
In short…we need to stop with this ideology that if we hide our kids from knowing anything, they will be better off. We need to constantly talk to our kids about things, yes even about, pardon my lashon, sex and drugs. If they know that they can talk to you and that you wont blow a gasket because they talked to a girl, they will be much more likely to consult you in the future. If everything is taboo, good luck in having an open line of communication with them in the future. We are not living in an era where if you shelter them they will be better off. They dont need to be purposely exposed to the filth C”V, but they need to know how to recognize it and how not to get sucked in to it. Otherwise, we are leaving them to fend for themselves alone in the Tumah without knowing the enemy and without the proper tools to deal with it.
Wishing everyone a K’Siva VaChasima Tova and clarity to think outside their own Daled Amos.
-Lshem Shomayim
In response to 39: For every Noah Feldman there are countless others who thanks to their secular knowledge are able to get jobs that allow keeping Shabbos and enable paying tuition for their children in day schools.
#37 reb Moish
Please send me your address I would like to send you a gift certificate to itunes so you can listen to some jazz music and let me know what “anamilistic” behaviors you perform. Music is a great thing in our lives. But like everything in life there needs to be parentsl intervention to be sure its appropriate for our childrens ears.
mdlevine – chill out big time – there is such a thing as chasidei umos haolam and chuchma biumos
chas/yesh said in #39 “Did secular studies help noah feldman? (I believe that’s the name of the former yeshiva student who went off the deep end and is now spouting off in the secular press about yiddishkeit.) ”
Do you actually think that describing ONE case of someone who went to a jewish day school and snapped is proof of anything? If so, then anyone can quote you cases of yeshiva boys who DIDNT have secular studies and snapped!
#16 – Thevoos wrote:
However, he is way off mark on thetopic of ’seperate seating’ concerts… Literally, gilui arayos and zenus takes place there.
You unintentionally bolstered Rabbi Teitelbaum’s point, where he complains about people that exaggerate. You declare that there is LITERALLY giluyi arayos and znus? You mean to say that you saw people engage in THE action that halachah qualifies as being Megaleh Ervah in Public? At a concert? In front of you? And it was an Ervah relationship? Was it a father and daughter or was it a married woman with someone other than her husband? Do my questions make you uncomfortable? Well this is the type of actions that you said takes place – Literally!
GOM
Great Article, Thank you Rabbi Teitelbaum.
I wonder what happened to the Agudah and those trips and rallies.
It would be prudent for all parents to periodically go thru their childrens ipods song titles might not be what they seem.
I thought article is just a tip of the goldberg.A hidden problem especially in Lakewood eyr hakodesh is not accepting people for who they are .It starts out with the school tumilt which is a unbelievable chillul hashem, In Lakewood colored shirts are frowned upon and kids will be rejected, for that excuse alone!! and then the veld asks why are there so many kids in lakewood going bad , Thank the vaad hachinuch, something has to be done and fast!!!KOL YISROEL AREVIM ZEH LOZEH and VOHAVTA LREACHA KOMECHA does not seem to apply!!!!
“agitators and connivers”
he is calling those that the Gedolim CHOOSE TO TRUST: “agitators and connivers”, “agitators and charlatans”?
and because he holds the Gedolim are being misinformed, we should take it upon ourselves to disregard certain of their rulings?
this sounds like how conservatism began.
Shtender said: “There is a reason a beautiful Chabad niggun sounds similiar to Russian folk songs and why the Spehardi niggun sounds like an Arabic song. So now Jewish music is reflecting the American music culture of jazz/rock music. Is that so terrible?”
Very well put, Shtender. I agree, the denunciation of modern Jewish music is an incongruous end to an otherwise outstanding editorial.
Kids, and let’s face it, adults too, don’t always get into the Eastern European stuff. For many of us, listening to Jewish Music wasn’t even a palatable option until bands like The Diaspora Yeshiva Band and Kesher and Piamentas came around.
The modern Jewish Music scene is the most vibrant iteration of Jewish music in over 60 years. Kids and adults all over are listening to words of Torah and enjoying it! We should be encouraging this.
Bottom line – -WE MUST REESTABLISH THE PIRCHAI/ZIRIEAH/AGUDAH systems not just for Motzai Shabbos but during the week and Shabbos Minyunim as well.
We also need to create a system for the summers upstate and for those who stay home.
About time we teach our kids to be ERLICH NOT FRUM
To all those offering comments about Jewish music – I’ve been in the field for over 30 years as a musician and band leader and have played at 100’s of chasanas. It is more or less true that Jewish music has been influenced by the musical style of the local culture. The problem today is that the culture of American and western society is at an extremely low level – very “prust” and crude – and that’s what’s reflected in much of contemporary American music (not to mention the way the musicians and singers dress and behave). There is absolutely no place for such music at our Yiddishe simchas. True Yiddish music can be very lively, enjoyable and entertaining. We Yidden know what a true simcha is. We don’t need to imitate or copy the shallow and corrupt practices of the surrounding culture.
See what Rabbi Eli Tetelbaum has to say about music and CDs and gadgets in this article on Camp Sdei Chemed’s website.
http://www.campsci.com/articles/a_peek_into_the_garden_of_eden.htm
So are we to restrict or not to restrict?
Scratching my head here.
Absolutely wonderful article.
How do I explain to my son that the “yeshivisha” wedding we went to where the chasan learns in a brand name yeshiva and is a ben torah has music and dancing that it would seem to me to rival any goyisha concert. My son wants the tape the video and is already trying to mimic these “dancers.”
To post #60, Trying:
Rabbi Teitelbaum is absolutely consistent. He is telling the boys to make their own decisions; to look at whats out there and not get sucked in by the waste of time and energy. He is NOT saying to restrict; he is telling the boys to restrict themselves- to think for themselves. It seems like we ALL have a hard time understanding that because in today’s Hashkafah (or lack thereof) everything is either assur or mutar and has to be decided by Gedolim. Why cant we impart ideas and Hashkafos to our kids TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT OUT OF LIFE and not constantly shoving it down their throats which seems to be the only “hashkafah” they learn.
Great job Rabbi Teitelbaum! Keep standing up for the right Derech and for our kids.
It is ridiculous to say that the American gedolim like the Novominsker Rebbe, Rabbi Solomon, Rabbi Rosenblum, the satmar & skvere Rebbe’s etc. are not well informed and litsen only to “right wing charlatans”. These Rabbonim meet a huge amount of people every day and are intimately aware of all the problems in our society. You may not agree with the conclusion they reach but don’t make it sound like these are a bunch of old world people that are easy to fool. It is also very condensing to say even though they are wrong i am so great that i will listen to them also, someone who sacrificed his life for Torah and Avodah can see things in a different light. Just like you don’t say the surgeon is wrong but i will listen to him anyway accept that there are people that understand things that you don’t.
#55 Feivel,
Why don’t you read the points that he brought out-namely about the stories in Tanach, which I thought we were supposed to learn from?
Second of all, I seem to recall a number of seforim of Gedolim, which some claim were ghostwritten by their talmidim or confidantes and therefore were not so ‘accepted’ by even the kannoim. I don’t seem to remember anybody talking about “How can you not accept this sefer written by so-and-so when he was ‘trusted’ by this Godol? Hmmmm.
I read this article in the Yated two weeks ago.
Rabbi Teitelbaum is right on the mark.
He should send a copy to my daughter’s high school which just prohibited the girls from swimming at the Boro Park Y of all places!
Rabbi Teitelbaum,
Well written article! However, I believe a summary would be appropriate and indeed, for me, is quite necessary. Restrict or not? Are you addressing the boys, the Mechanchim, the Rebbeim, the parents, or the Gedolim? What exactly do you suggest at this point?
Bais yaakov Elementary school of BP is having all computers removed from the classrooms, because computers can lead to the wrong things. How many millions of $$ have girls made by computers that has led to supporting torah and families?????
himmelstein re post 49 “…there is such a thing as chasidei umos haolam and chuchma biumos”
fine — so you keep attending the daily shiur of “rabbi rush” such chuchma!
i have a little trouble “chilling out” when I see someone putting an immoral man in the same category as an esteemed Rov!
your dispenser of wisdom and virtue was found with (trying to be sensitive but expecting to be edited) bottles of special little pills that a married man may need -not a divorced man like him)
#62, Lshem Shomoyim-
Do you really want our kids to be left to completely choose for themselves? Do you want to offer them Ipods, televisions, internet on the one hand and a Gemara on the other and ask them to choose which way their life should go?
The same way we put up gates near staircases so that our very small children don’t fall down the stairs, so too we must put up gates that protect our older children from making terrible spiritual mistakes.
Of course, there is only so much we can restrict. At the end of the day, our children we have to use their bechira. However, to say that “TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT OUT OF LIFE” opens the door to a lot of open-mindedness which doesn’t end at concerts and summer activities.
Question: Is it possible that the Gedolim are wrong? I mean, they ARE human. Infallibility of the religious leaders are a Christian concept, not a Jewish one.
Reb Eli has been the greatest innovators with Camp Sdei Chemed offering American and Am-Israeli boys a summer to remember.
We all love the 8wk summer vacation, boys & girls enjoy camp, we do a family trip, visit relatives & friends, make a few extra bucks for the mechanchim of the year. When you add up the bein hazamanin of E”Y including almost the entire tishrei & nissan, plus 3 wks of the summer, we Americans aint such vacationeers.
#64
i read the episodes from Tanach.
there is no heter to determine our own course of action by how we personally interpret such episodes. to ignore the psak of Gedolim because Doeg misled Shaul is very dangerous and not the way of erlich Yiddin.
When elements of a balanced and healthy life are eliminated, then if anything, da’as torah will be soon to follow chas ve shalom. Our forefathers, chazal and all of our gedolim would be shocked to see what is going on nowadays. It is essential that treife influences be purged from chasunahs and camps, etc., yet we need to be careful to not assur everything. How about starting with tackling materialism, ignorance, indifference to secular knowledge, immodesty, and avodah zarah (materialism, hedonism, and self-indulgence)?
To those of you who are worried that R’ Teitelbaum thinks the gedolim are out of touch, I don’t think you understand what these gedolim are. For example, R’ Elyashiv learns practically 24/7, he just barely attended his own immeidate family simchas. That’s what makes him the gadol that he is. So of course he doesn’t know everything that is going on. Of course he needs to rely on other people to fill him in on what goes on at concerts and the like. And unfortunately sometimes those other people have agendas. If R’ Elyashiv would be “in touch” as you say, then he wouldn’t be able to be the gadol b’torah that he is.
To all those people who don’t seem to understand whats wrong with the contemporary styles of music in the American culture, hip-hop, rock, and so on.
Music is a very powerful tool. It has the power to elevate a person spiritually, but it can also do much damage.
There is much more to music than the words sung to it. it conveys a message and an attitude.
The attitude of today’s music is one of chutzpa, hefkeirus and prikas ol. I haven’t seen anyone come away from hearing such music, with a greater desire to serve hashem and to grow in Yiddishkeit, on the contrary this music brings on a prustkeit and a decadence in Middos and Yiras Shomayim.
The Gedoley Yisroel from previous generations who chose to serve Hashem with the Goishe music that was prevalent in their times, obviously knew that it was appropriate.
By the way very few nigunim were actually taken from them, most of the waltzes and marches were composed by Yidden.
And for all those who do not understand why it should be assur if there is no Halacha against it, if you understand why an erliche Yid should not have spiked jelled hair, earrings and a ponytail, although there is no halacha assuring it, you should be able to understand the difference between the Jewish music of yore to today’s music.
Lsehm Shamoyim (#46) I believe you have a misunderstanding about Nisyanos (as does most of the world so don’t feel bad). You said:
“We are so focused on blaming all of the outside influences on our children’s struggles that we don’t realize that we are taking away our responsibility and their bechira. We are basically teching them that we dont ever trust their decisions so it is our jobs as parents and rebbeim to make decisions for them”
There is absolutely no maaleh in being Omed in a Nisayon that you didn’t need to have in the first place. In other words if you choose to put yourself in the mokom of a nisayon and you stand up to the challenge and think you are getting a real prize upstairs, you are in for a rude awakening as their first questions upstairs will be “why did you put yourself in danger”. The words of my Mashgiach “Hechrech is a Maaleh” still ring in my ears almost 20 years later. All the gedolim worked on themselves to the point where they didnt have a nisayon to do the right thing. we daven every morning not to be put into Nisyonos.
Dear Rabbi Teitelbaum,
I heard you on the Zev Brener show last night and fully agree with everything you said. I only wish all yeshivas and rabbeim would think like you do. Let me tell you my story perhaps it will help explain things.
I come from a very religious home and as a young boy I was a very good student in yeshiva. The main reason I am no longer religious is because all my yeshiva ever taught me was that everything was forbidden. We weren’t permitted to go to the local pizza shop because supposedly it was a hangout – which by the way it wasn’t. I had a very good voice and enjoyed music. I very much wanted to be in the Miami boys choir but the yeshiva told my parents that the yeshiva’s policy wouldn’t permit it. My grades were excellent and I just couldn’t understand why the yeshiva wouldn’t allow me to join when my friends who went to other yeshivas were in the choir. I felt no joy at all in being religious. They would never take us on any trips etc. It was all a negative experience from early morning till late at night.
When I once lost my yarmulke, I went to school with another one which was a little smaller. When the rosh yeshiva saw me wearing the smaller yarmulke he asked me no questions but went over to me and grabbed it off my head in great rage and threw it on the ground making some very uncomplimentary remarks. I can never forget that embarrassing moment which happened in front of my friends. I was so hurt that I wanted to cry but I held it back. From that moment on it was all downhill. My davening wasn’t the same anymore and my learning began to suffer. As much as I tried not to let the incident effect me it didn’t help. One thing led to another and soon I just did the mitzvos by rote and there was no self-satisfaction – absolutely no joy. Unfortunately the enticing world out there soon got hold of me and bit by bit my life changed. First I skipped putting on tefillin one day and then another. Next, off went my tztzis and I soon forgot I was a Jew. In order to get some joy into my life I began hanging out with neighborhood kids who came from a far more modern background than I did. They took me to the movies and introduced me to the Internet and other things I’d rather not say. This past summer I was one of those who hung out with hundreds of other boys and girls just like me doing what we call “chilling out.” The rest of the story you’ve read in the papers.
Unfortunately, I’m afraid I’m already lost and I highly doubt things will change, but you never know. I only write you in order to tell you to keep up your struggle and try to change things otherwise I’m afraid there’ll be many more like me going off the deep end.
I’m glad that there are still people like you and Rabbi Horowitz out there that understand our problems. I only hope you succeed in your uphill battle.
From one of your many secret admirers,
YH
True Yiddish music can be very lively, enjoyable and entertaining. We Yidden know what a true simcha is. We don’t need to imitate or copy the shallow and corrupt practices of the surrounding culture.
I’m interested in knowing what you consider to be “true Yiddish music”. Ever listen to Caucasian Sketches? If I told you it was a Gerrer nigun and you didnt know what it really was you’d call it “true Jewish music”. In reality it was written by a drunk Russian. The point is that Jewish music always reflects the area it comes from and is obviously heavily influenced by it. This “true Jewish music” is a myth nowdays. Sure, there is music written by Jews for Jews, but there is nothing inherently Jewish in the niggun, it’s just a different take on whatever is popular where the composer is from. Like the example I gave before, Sephardi music and Chabad music sound the way they do because they are heavily influenced by their respective cultures or origin.
RE # 71:
Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt”l said once ‘the only one person who is infallible is the pope.’ He specifically was addressing the point you were making…
mkygeb – call Rabbi Teitelbaum and/or Rabbi Horowitz.
just because you tasted what is out there, do not let the yetzer hora trick you into thinking that t’shuva is not possible.
by you posting here, you are making the first step on the road back. call before Rosh HaShana. keep moving in the right direction.
#73 Feivel,
You are ignoring his and my point. He is saying that the kannoim are telling some of the Gedolim wrong information. According to you, it seems, that is impossible, because since the Gadol believes him, then the information is automatically true. He is saying that it is possible for a Gadol to believe people who will lie and distort.
mkygeb,
I feel very bad for what you went through. Just know that there is no such thing as being too lost…
1. Suggestion to posters. Can you say the general region that you come from? it seems that alot of these so-called standards in which adults and kids are judged are concentrated in metropolitan areas, such as brooklyn. Do out of towners have the same issues? Is it worse? Better?
2. We’re always talking of kids, kids. What about us? Do we reflect what we expect of our kids? (I’m not judging here, but if we go partying or to movies or even listen to secular music, how can we expect our kids not to emulate us? If we dress differently depending on which vacation place were are in, they see right through us! What do WE do to let off steam, energy? It’s a lot harder to change ourselves!
-a fellow New Yorker who’s old enough to remember ‘Dip the Apple in the Honey’ uses the tune of ‘Oh my darlin’ Clemintine’
Responding to #70 and 77:
I am not saying that we should put our kids in the way of nisayon and let them choose. Of course we say “Al tivyainu lo liday nisayon”. But guess what?? They are going to have nisyonos in their lifetimes and they need to know how to deal with them. So what you do is let them make small decisions first. Maybe when theyre 10 you let them choose whether or not they want to daven. Then, when theyre 15 you let them choose whether or not they want to daven maariv with a minyan. You cannot force them to do EVERYTHING at once. You need to be very clear about what the upside of each mitzvah is (schar v’onesh, etc…)and not just because Mommy and Totty will punish them. Basically, one day it IS gonna be their choice, and do u still want them choosing to daven with minyan because their wives will divorce them? Why do u expect them to suddenly choose to do the right thing for the right reasons, when they have always been doing it for the wrong reasons (or at least for reasons they dont remotely understand??
And to YH (post #78), it is never too late. Dont let the pain of a few well meaning but very misunderstanding Rebbeim keep you from a beautiful Olam Hazeh and Olam Habah. They were from the Alter Heim and tried to give you the best Chinuch they knew. Go to Gateways, Arachim, Discovery, there are so many wonderful programs that will show you the beauty of mitzvah observance and it doesnt have to be a painful burden.
Thank you for yet another wonderful letter Mr. YeshivaWold. A Letter is at the end of the day only a Letter, Now we need action.
We need a group of young askanim to come together and network with Chinuch professionals as well as financers to be able to subsidize such trips that programs that R’ Teitelbaum speaks about.
There are so many times during the year these programs and trips could take place: whether on a Thursday night with learning and chulent, or a Motzai Shabbos basketball league during those long Motzai Shabbosim in the winter, as well as the obvious times of Chanukah, Winter and Summer breaks.
The Money will probably be not too hard to find, as this is a central issue affecting our community, we just need people’s time.
A group of people ( I would love to help, you can contact me thru yeshivaworld) who would be willing to sign up kids, arrange buses, chaperone, referee a basketball game and so on. If we can just get a group of ten people who want to make a difference in the world all the other pieces would fall into place.
to 86.
A “trip” will likely be frowned upon by those not subscribing to a view of tolerance. (I may be wrong but I heard the free birthright trips to EY were assured even while run under frum auspicies because it was sponsed by UJA.
More broadly, it seems that one underlying problem we as a community suffer from is we fail to appreciate that it is appropriate for different people to live their lives differently. “keshem sheain partzufeihem shavos. . . just as people don’t look alike, they don’t think, feel, or are tempted the same as their peers”.
So different hanhagos can be approproate for different people. E.g. wild jewish music need not be introduced to the fine yeshiva bochur for whom it would be a step down but should perhaps not be frowned upon to the other bochur who is tempted by the goyish equivalent. As parents, friends, bnei torah and as a community WE NEED TO SHOW ADMIRATION FOR THOSE WHO EXCEL WHILE TRULY RESPECTING THOSE WHO DON’T, whether it be choie of yeshiva, level of yeshivishkeit, extent of chumros, and yes even frumkeit.
mkygeb – Dear YH
Your post should be put up on YW as an article in itself.
Tears come to my eyes as I read your letter, knowing that their are countless others like yourself, who’ve had bad experiences with well intentioned but rotten Mechanchim.
Please do not lose hope, all is not lost. There are some organizations that help people who are trying to find themselves spiritually. They are open minded and they have answers.
Two that come to my mind are Rabbi Gluck of Areivim, [email protected], and Rabbi Shafier of TBT [email protected], both from Monsey.
The Holy Rebbe Rav Nachman miBreslov said that the Yeitzer Hora wants the Atzvus and Yiush that come after committing an aveira, more than aveira itself. Because one can do teshuva from an aveira, but the yiush will keep one from doing teshuva.
אין שום יאוש בעולם כלל – קיין יאוש איז נישט פארהאנען
Rabbi Teitelbaum his 100% right!
But: By saying that the Gedolim signed on a letter because they were fed lies (which is also true)- makes people lose TRUST in the Gedolim. I remember Horav Shach making public statments, and people said that he was misinformed. Now i beleive them – and I lost my trust.
What about fitness? It is easy to organize sports and facilities are relatively inexpensive. Fitness can only assist a good mind, as the overwhelming scientific evidence confirms. But this too is discouraged from many institutions. I take my kids on walks into the fresh air and wilderness.
When children are sent to the “country” it is critical that they be in an atmosphere where there is accountabilty. Reb Teitelbaum is dead on with his evaluation of the summer situation. Parents, Rosh Yeshiva and Teachers are fooling themselves if they think this summer’s events were an aberation. These types of events were going on 25 years ago. The participants back then at least had some shame. Today the “mainstream” media has made these behaviors mainsteam. As parents we have two choices, pertend its not happening or having the correct conversations with our children. It is critical to know your own child and not worry about what “everyone” will say. If your child is not going to be the next “godol hador” it doesn’t mean he or she will not be an erlich, menshlach yid. Give your child alternatives that are appropriate or they will find aternatives on thier own. A gut gbenshed yur to all. Ma we not judge our fellow yid any harsher than we want HKBH to judge us.
Rabbi Titelbaum has had way over 1000 students he is a gaon and a massive tzadik
Maybe if we treated all kids the same way we’re mekarev rechokim they would find great joy and meaning in yiddishkeit!
Oh yeah! That was beautiful. I couldn’t stop smiling as I was reading it, I enjoyed every word. There’s more to this religion than just “everything you ever thought might be somewhat enjoyable is naughty, filthy, and evil”. I hope this article is able to enlighten as many people as possible.
WHAT? THIS IS leshem shamayim?
A couple of questions which need clarification:
1) do you actually think you get s’char for being omed b’nissoyon?
what happened the gemarah pesacham about Ika Darka achrina by arayos nikrah RASHAH!?
2)How do you explain The way of Chaza”l always to do everything to stay as far away from any nissoyon possible, Omer linozir sichor sichor likarmicha al tikrav! (you want there shouldn’t be tzniusdike uniforms? we should all watch {some} movies so we should have a understand which ones we watched were the mutter ones and which were the assur ones?etc. I am sure that is how the steipler would have raised his son if only he heard of this mehalich, lol!)
3)But the best was yet the comment about adults should not having a filter on the internet so they should bedavka see all the shmutz,and not look like someone who is a bassar v’dam who has nissyonos.(mind boggling, anyone around me who saw it couldn’t figure out the logic in that one.)
first of all the gemarah says ain apitropes liaroyos which means even the biggest tzadik can fall through in these nissyonos, so explain that to your kid being that it seems you are so open with him, and it wont undermine your status as the leader of the house at all.
Second think for one second what this means a father tells his kid there are terrible things out there therefore we have a filter so they don’t come into our home however i can bring them in when your not around. tell the kids how bad tv is for them, when only you have one in your bedroom.
But even if you disagree with all stated above YOU SHOULD STILL HAVE A FILTER FOR ALL POP UPS AND OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPEN B’ONES!
Question to the rabbim:
Why am I the only one bothered with this, have we forgotten what we’ve learnt in yeshivah?(or am I missing something?)
with all due respect to rabbi teitelbaum,
I don’t understand what you mean to follow your posek(or godol) even when they tell you right is left and left is right, however when you think they’ve been misinformed don’t trust them being that they are not eligible to make such decisions.
Growing up we were raised understanding that when a gadol says left is right is because
A P’SAK IS NISHT FUN KUP, ESS IS FUN SHAMAYIM!
that is why it is called Daas torah!
Please explain!
#95 Looks like your the only one with a klurre kup…
Serious, you raised some excellent points, right on target.
Dear #78,
I was brokenhearted to read the story about the Yarmulka. Please get a hold of the book “Holy Brother” about Reb Shlomo Carlebach Z”L. There is a story there about when he went to Russia. He came with many pairs of tefillin and yarmulkas for the refuseniks. On his last day, a 12 year old boy knocked on his door, and asked if he could have a pair of tefillin. Reb Shlomo said he was very sorry, but had already given away his last pair. The boy began to cry bitterly. He said he is going to be Bar-Mitzvah soon, and has no chance to get Tefillin now. Reb Shlomo thought for a minute, took out his own pair which he had inherited from his father and had much precious sentimental value to him, and gave it to the boy. The boy thanked Shlomo, and then said what about a yarmulka? Shlomo took off the yarmulka from his head and gave it to the boy.
On his way back from Russia, during a stopover he asked another Jew if he could borrow his tefillin. The Jew looked at him and said, “Shlomo, before you worry about tefillin, why don’t you start wearing a yarmulka.”
There are always rude people who will not be don lchaf zchus (give benefit of doubt). However, we have many more beautiful yidden whose greatness and kindness we will never know. Please don’t give up yiddishkeit because of one insensitive person. You will miss out on being part of an unbelievable club. The greatest feeling in the world is to do a kindness for another person. All the learning, mitvos and restrictions we have are all to train us and enable us to devote all our kochos to chesed. Imagine the pleasure a person has if he knows he never wasted a minute from worrying about the less fortunate, and did all he possibly could to help the miserable. This is all the Torah wants from us in a nutshell.
# 46 couldn’t agree with you more.
Is the culture becoming more decadent? YES.
Is that the reason for kids going off the derech? NO
L’mashal if the yetzer is fire it still will only burn something if it’s flammable. Good parenting is the critical component that will keep children from becoming flammable. And # 46 you’re right. Many parents make ridiculous demands of their children. I don’t think there should be more gedarim; their should probably be fewer and instead instill a sense of mission into our children according to that child’s talents and strengths. Our own culture is what is sending these kids off the derech, not the internet, movies, pritzus v’chulei.
Moshe A.
P.S. I think that these ideas of R’ Teitelbaum and others are good, but they shouldn’t be viewed as the permanent solutions, rather a temporary band-aid to fix the current bleeding.
To: mkygeb
Thanks for your post, which I’m sure was difficult to write. It’s not too late for you, never too late as long as you are breathing. There are roads back. But it was so important for the rest of the klal to hear your story in order to understand how yiddishkeit can get destroyed in the places it is meant to be cultivated. If there are others who are like you, meaning willing to communicate their stories in a mature and articulate way as you did; willing to come back to the communities that burned them in order to help those who haven’t gone off the deep end yet, perhaps you (and they) can be part of the solution, which must entail a cooperative partnership between struggling teens (and 20’s), parents, Yeshiva administrators, and experts in “at risk” and “off the derech”.
Although Reb Eli’s frustation is well understood,especially that the concert the Gedolim banned was Shwekey’s and Fried’s,the most yeshivish of all the bigtime singers,nontheless to render the p’sak of the greatest Torah Sages of Klal Yisroel as a.sham,as if they are a bunch of misguided old men out of touch with reality,out of touch with the problems of our youth,in a public letter to everybody,instead of talking to the Gedolim directly,does a tremendous damage to Yiddishkeit/much greater than the problems raised in Reb Eli’s open letter. For to undermine the Gedolim is to undermine the very foundation of our Torah.-I’m certain that. Reb Eli is motivated by his love for Klal Yisroel,but “chochomim hezaharu b’divrechem”
klurre kup (#95) please read my post (#77) you are not the first one to point out his error.
I would summarize the article as follows and comment accordingly:
The many prohibitions and limitations placed on the youth is the reason [or at least a contributing reason] for the unacceptable summer activities.
There is a need to counter the seductive negative forces by providing alternative kosher entertainment
Gedolai Yisroel understood the need for alternative kosher outlets (as implied by the stories of Reb Moshe, Rav Pam and the Mirrer Rosh Yeshiva).
The Roshei Yeshivas that oppose entertainment (like trips to Washington DC) our out of touch and don’t know where their talmidim are during their vacation (as implied by the response to rosh yeshiva).
Daas Torah allows venues like concerts and sports as learned from the Chazal that explained the heter for marrying a non Jewish captive. Also, the Gemora says that for everything forbiden, something similar that was permitted. By assering such we are asking for trouble.
Shaul Hamelech and Dovid Hamelech despite their greatness—and even past experience with falsehood—are vulnerable and can be misled and the same holds true for the leaders of Klal Yisroel today.
The ban on concerts by the Gedolai Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel was a result of the efforts of the likes of Doeg and Achitofel who accomplished through falsehoods and exageration to convince the Gedolai Yisroel that seperate seating concerts are a threat to Yiddishkeit
The reason for the ban on concerts is because of pritzus in the hallways plus other unmentioned fabrications.
The psak the Gedolai Yisroel issued on concerts hurts. However, it should still be adhered to since one must follow the ruling of our sages even when they say “Right is left and left is right” as in the situation in this case (unless one consistently seeks Halachic guidance from other authoroties then those sages that banned the concerts).
We’re not writing off the role of the Gedolei Yisroel that banned concerts. We definitely need our gedolim to guide us. Rather we want to take away the monopoly from the few agitators and connivers by sincerely reaching out to them to teach us how to run activities al pi Torah
My comments on the above are as follows:
“The many prohibitions and limitations placed on the youth is the reason [or at least a contributing reason] for the unacceptable summer activities.”
I read the article that described what transpired at the poolroom in Monticello. The writer was very explicit that the participants were from all denominations of Klal Yisroel. There were many there that did not have any restrictions at all in their upbringing from most forms of entertainment. There are many reasons why someone might seek alternative entertainment. These reasons always existed. What changed was how low one falls today when they seek alternative entertainment. It is OK to assume that restrictions will lead one to seek alternative pleasures. It is, however, a mistake to assume that depths of lows that these youths fell to was because of the restrictions. If anything, it indicates that Rabbi Teitelbaum is out of touch. Although it is hard to pinpoint exactly what changed, there are reasons why fun seeking kids get on to the fast track to Shoil Tachtus today more then before. The playing field has changed. A fundamental understanding is needed of the life-cycle of lax behavior (the same behavior that in the past just melted away in the subsequent musar schmooze in Yeshiva or Bais Yakkov). Understanding how it snowballs into the worst aveiros by bypassing the fortresses of busha that Klal Yisroel is blessed with, is critical to shed some light as to the cause of this tzoroh. I assume that there might have indeed been in the past elements that leading up to a concert might have not acted al pi Torah. Some more, some less, doing varying degrees of issurim ranging from hirrurim to looking and possibly worse. However, no one left Yiddishkeit as a result. It takes a lot of aveiros on someones part to extinguish our inherent busha and to pave the way for such bad. Until then there were many opportunities to do wholehearted tshuvah. Nowadays, a one minute off guard conversation between opposite genders can result in one party giving the other a cell phone number (or email address etc.). Then, thanks to our conncected world, all aveiros done by predecessors are pooled, present and available and the way is pre-paved with shmootizige text message acronyms and the likes to bring this casual encounter to the worst possible aveiros.
There always were always individuals that held extreme views about concerts. What Rabbi Teitelbaum thinks is that it is those same individuals that are behind these issurim. In reality that is not the case. Chazal tell us that a matzeivoh is osur even though was earlier cherished by Hashem in the time of our Avos. That is becuase of changing facts on the ground. Rabbi Teitelbaum wholeheartedly believes that the daas Torah that existed until now holds today as well. That is not the case.
“There is a need to counter the seductive negative forces by providing alternative kosher entertainment.”
This is correct. However, not necessarily with what was Kosher in the past.
“Gedolai Yisroel understood the need for alternative kosher outlets (as implied by the stories of Reb Moshe, Rav Pam and the Mirrer Rosh Yeshiva) and therefore it permitted and needed.”
Their psak from then might not apply today
“The Roshei Yeshivas that oppose entertainment (like trips to Washington DC) are out of touch and don’t know where their talmidim are during vacation (as implied by the response to rosh yeshiva).”
Indeed, there are some (many?) that are extreme and are not aware of their talmidim’s activities. However, today, knowing more of what is really going on can result in the same conclusion.
“Daas Torah allows venues like concerts and sports as learned from the Chazal that explained the heter for marrying a non Jewish captive. Also, the Gemora says that for everything forbidden, something similar that was permitted. By assering such we are asking for trouble.”
This statement might be benign had it not been a launching pad against the psak of Gedolai Yisroel. Do you really think that knowing a Gemorah or two is enough to establish a position to challenge Gedolai Yisroel that know these Chazals (one of which is a Rashi al HaTorah that even children know) in addition to what they know by completing Shas again and again besides for what they know by finishing the entire Medrash and Zohar every year?
“Shaul Hamelech and Dovid Hamelech despite their greatness—and even past experience with falsehood—as well as the 250 Sanhedrin were vulnerable and were misled and the same holds true for the leaders of Klal Yisroel today.”
If Shaul Hamelech and Dovid Hamelech were misled maybe we should question the issur yichud with a pnuya that was enacted by beis dino shel Dovid, since maybe it was influenced by agitators and charlatans?
Does anyone believe that he understands the machlokes between Shaul and Duvid enough to extrapolate and draw conclusions for our present day to day questions?
“The ban on concerts by the Gedolai Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel was a result of the efforts of the likes of Doeg and Achitofel who accomplished through falsehoods and exaggeration to convince the Gedolai Yisroel that separate seating concerts are a threat to Yiddishkeit. It is a situation where they were caught in the same trap like Shaul Hamelech and Dovid Hamelech and the 250 Sanhedrin in times of Korach.”
Come on, do you think that the Gedolai Yisroel that personally meet thousands of Yidden a year from the whole world that unburden all their problems are so naive? Do you think that Gedolai Yisroel don’t know the value of their signature? We’re not talking about just a Kol Koreh signed on impulse that says concerts are usur. We’re talking about a thought out strategy that encompasses Newspaper advertising, hiring singing artists for permissible events etc. Don’t you owe to Gedolai Yisroel to give them credit that they thought gave this plenty of consideration.
If you mention Dovid Hamelech, why don’t you also mention that Dovid Hamelech actually asked Hashem as to what is the cause of the famine to which Hashem answered two entirely unexpected reasons. Maybe in Shomayim they think differently then Rabbi Teitelbaum. If you are comparing to Dovid you have to also compare that Gedolai Yisroel know what Hashem wants. After all they are not masiach daas from the Shem Havaya for a moment.
“The reason for the ban on concerts is because of pritzus in the hallways plus other unmentioned fabrications.”
I read the entire psak (and that is even though it did not appear here on theyeshivaworld in spite of it being very relevant news) and no where did it mention the aforementioned reasons. One is obligated to learn even sichas chulin shel talmudei chachomim and more so such a psak that was written with yisshuv hadaas with the emphasis stating that their opinion is Daas Torah. The psak finishes off “voz yimolei schok peenu”, a very revealing statement as to where the machshovos of the Gedolai Yisroel were. I know Rabbi Teitelbaum is a great mchanech, but does his daas Torah extend to the inyonim of churban Beis Hamikdosh? Would Rabbi Teitelbaum have suggested that the reason for a plague in Yerushalyim was because they played musical instruments by weddings in Yerushalyim and they were not sensitive enough to the churban? I doubt it. Yet it is a fact. Would Rabbi Teitelbaum have suggested that the tzorohs that befell the greatest people of Klal Yisroel in the city of Tzfas when the earthquake occurred, was because Yerushalyim was slighted? I doubt it as well. Yet Gedolai Yisroel attributed this reason for the earthquake. Rabbi Teitelbaum and all of us must know that “lo machshovsai machshoviseichem”, reasoning of Gedolai Yisroel are often beyond our relam . And Rabbi Teitelbaum should also remember the Gemorah “Kamoh Gedolim Divrei Chachomim Shlo Nosnu B’hem Taam”.
“The psak the Gedolai Yisroel issued on concerts hurts. However, it should still be adhered to since one must follow the ruling of our sages even when they say “Right is left and left is right” as in the situation in this case (unless one consistently seeks Halachic guidance from other authorities then those sages that banned the concerts).”
It is true. But it does not ring true, since the thrust of the article insinuates that the Gedolai Yisroel were wrong. It would be perfectly OK for expressing pain with the psak when the message is to rally fellow Yidden for Emunas Chachomim. The message in this article, however, undermines Emunas Chachomim. It gives some lip service at the end that we need to be ourselves m’vatel. True bittul would have resulted in a different type of article.
“We’re not writing off the role of the Gedolei Yisroel that banned concerts. We definitely need our gedolim to guide us. Rather we want to take away the monopoly from the few agitators and connivers by sincerely reaching out to them to teach us how to run activities al pi Torah.”
Its never to late. Maybe if Rabbi Teitelbaum would have seeked advice of Gedolai Yisroel if he should write a public letter like this every time he saw concerts promoting “family seating” as an option, they would have reached out to him for opinion.
Better Beware of What We Hear or Read!
Even though the posted article was very clear, there are always people who enjoy taking words out of context and giving them meanings that were not implied or intended. One notices this by reading some of the posted comments. Any magician can tell you that he has no difficulty fooling even the smartest of men. Any good charlatan, conniver, or con-artist, will readily admit that there are few people whom they cannot fool no matter how clever they may think they are. Usually, the easiest ones to fool are those who believe they can’t be fooled. Someone possessing a sharp smooth evil tongue can be very dangerous and do far more damage than even a powerful bomb. A tongue just a few inches long can kill a man six feet tall and even an entire city. Much damage has been done because of the slip of the tongue. “Hachayim v’hamoves b’yad haloshon.” – Life and death is in the power of the tongue.
The ten meraglim fooled a large segment of Klall Yisroel and caused them to die in the desert. Many of the Sanhedrin were fooled by Korach’s slick tongue. The Givonim pulled a fast one over Yehoshuah and the Bnei Yisroel when they claimed they came from a far-off land and wanted to make peace with the Bnei Yisroel. Even a prophet can be fooled as when Yaakov was tricked by the holy Shevotim who certainly meant it l’shem Shomayim into believing that Yosef was killed by a wild animal. People such as Doeg and Achitofel were able to fool King Shaul into wanting to kill Dovid and succeeded to get him to kill the entire city of Nov a city inhabited by Kohanim. There are countless other examples scattered throughout Tanach.
This only goes to teach us how very careful we must be before believing everything we hear or read, no matter how reliable the source of the information seems to be. While the Torah tells us that Bais Din can rely on the testimony of two kosher people, there is a story in the Gemora Sanhedrin of a person that was put to death based on witnesses that were later found to have lied. This is why Bais Din must interrogate witnesses very carefully and even then they can be dubed.
The Torah requires us to remember the story of Miriam every day of our lives. This should teach us a very important lesson. Not everything we see we can understand or is what it seems to be. Sometimes we may be missing some important facts as did Miriam. Even though she certainly had the best of intentions when she spoke to Aaron, believing that she could put Moshe’s marriage back together again, she didn’t have all the information necessary to properly interpret what she saw. She wasn’t aware that Moshe’s level of prophesy was on a higher level than all other prophets.
Not everything we see, hear, or read, should be taken at face value no matter how reliable the source may seem to be is the lesson one must take from these stories. We must always exercise extreme caution before believing what we hear. Words sometimes serve as a smokescreen to obscure the truth, rather than a searchlight to reveal it. If one tells a big enough lie often enough, there are many that will unfortunately believe it, and nothing lends the weight of truth to a lie as saying it in a whisper.
In today’s times when it has become so easy to spread all sorts of rumors and news through the Internet, fax machines, newspapers, telephone, radio, and other methods, and even remain anonymous, we must be more careful than ever not to believe all we read or hear and to be extremely cautious and skeptical before assuming that something is true especially when the contents may include information of a derogatory or of a slanderous nature. Let’s remember that the most dangerous lies are those that resemble the truth. They may not live as long as the truth but their birthrate is much higher. A lie will go seven times around the world while the truth is putting on its boots. One must beware of half-truths, for you may be left holding the wrong half. When a person tells you “I’m going to tell you the truth,” you wonder what he has been telling you since the conversation began.
Today, more than ever before, there are lots of poisonous snakes out there who are busy 24 hours a day dreaming up ways to spread their vicious venom at whoever may be within their reach. Some are busy putting up their anonymous “Pashkevil” attacking rabbonim and roshei yeshiva, while others have their own personal vendetta or score they wish to settle with their business partner, neighbor, or boss. This poses a great danger not only to the distributor or author of these poisonous sheets but to the readers as well. Loshon horah and certainly slander, is prohibited to be said, written, listened to, or read. So if you see these rag-sheets scattered in the street, don’t let your curiosity get the better of you. Just step on them and continue walking. If you see them posted on the web then press the escape button before you too get bitten.
Not only were those who spoke against Moshe bitten by the snakes while the Jews traveled through the desert, but so were the people who gave them an attentive ear. Nowadays, we have no cooper serpent to look up to in case we get bitten. Evil speech and slander has killed many an innocent man, and has been the source of much death, destruction, sorrow, and pain throughout history. If even the greatest of the great have been duped by it, then we certainly are easy prey.
As we stand before Rosh HaShana we’d all better make our own “chesbon hanefesh” and see where we have gone wrong. If we can’t find anything, then it’s a sure sign that we haven’t searched between the cracks!
While one individual cannot change the world, all of us together can. One snowflake alone may be powerless, but together they can close down a city. If we all join together, we can make a difference.
From
Just one snowflake
Mr.facts—Bravo
A thought I had regarding positive activities for kids, was that we underestimate the ability of the yiddishe kup. We know that parnasah is hard for many. We also don’t want kids going to secular colleges. In many yeshiva high schools and elementary schools, the attitude is that limudei chol is bittul zman, and therefore we should fool around and denigrate it. (Usually this will cause kids to end up denigrating the rebbeim, as well, eventually, but that’s a different story.) But the point is that we keep kids in school until they are 18, and after all that they still can’t make a living. Why not offer advanced science programs where kids can learn electronics, robotics, radar, etc. and be mechadesh new devices, not just study to pass boring exams. (All this could be with a goal to help the Israeli army fight terror, for example.) We can teach kids molecular biology and tell them that many people are suffering from XYZ disease, Rachmono Litzlan, and this is what we don’t understand about it, maybe you can figure out how to cure it. Give them a lab during Junior High and High School where they can experiment under supervision, not just do rote exercises, and they will surprise us with what they can accomplish. Stress the goal of starting a company with their inventions, and hiring yidden who have no parnasa. By the time they are 18, they will have the means to make a living, if they feel that they can’t sit and learn a whole day at some point. Kids love building things, and they can accomplish while they have fun.
There have been huge million dollar prizes for a team that can invent a vehicle that can drive without a driver, using GPS. (The army wants to avoid getting soldiers killed while on reconnaisance missions.) It is both fun and educational to enter such a competition with classmates. Of course one needs good teachers and facilties to work with, but if one puts on his resume that he invented such and such in high school, he is almost guaranteed a job and high salary anywhere.
Doing fun team projects with the goal of yishuv haolam, rather than hanging out, can transform kids at risk. Not everybody can sit in front of a gemara a whole day, but there are many other kosher and worthwhile activities to do.
Firstly, for those of you who are not familiar with Rabbi Teitelbaum, yes, this is the same Rabbi Teitelbaum who is the founder of Dial-a Daf & all the other Dial-a shiur products. I believe that until this day it is still being run from his house. This man is responsible for thousands of yidden all over the globe learning Torah. “Rebbe”, as he is still fondly known by his thousands of talmidim through the years was always different. When others thought & dreamed….he DID! Rebbe always had his read on the pulse of the talmidim. Who said you can’t put Mishnayos on the radio? Who said you can’t teach over short wave radio? Who said we can’t create 24 hour shiurim? Pirchei trips? His idea. Siyum Mishnayos? Him too. This was and still is a first rate machanech who KNOWS what is REALLY going on! No fluff. No baloney. So, when Reb Eli says that there is a serious problem…trust him. I just hope that Rebbe does what he is best at. DOING SOMETHING about it too. He has now brought this issue out front. Let’s stop beating around the bush. Everything is banned. Talmidim are banned from yeshivos. Girls are banned from schools. This or that yarmulka is banned. Pizza is banned. Ballgames are banned. Choirs are banned. Guess what? English studies are being banned too for high school boys. So now if at the age of 14 you can’t learn 16 hours a day, there is no place for you! Oh, you want to learn how to read & write? YOU are banned! Please, DO something!
One of the best most intelligent pieces I’ve read in a long time.
R’ Teitelbaum is a very very very smart man!
Dear mkygeb,
You can survive this traumatic time. I did it (not yours, mine) more than 60 years ago, and wound up being a frum zeidie. You don’t need my life story; suffice to say that at the time it felt like swinging from one trapeze to another. My parents never knew what I was going through – only Hashem. Of course, it wasn’t apparent to me then – not frum, not even Jewish.
At least you have a major asset: as a Jew who knows how to learn – and I mean more than just gemorra – you can relate to gedolim, develop your own self-mussar, (“Strive for Truth” – Rav E. E. Dessler – I find excellent as a guide); find a rav who knows Torah and the gashmiush world (to deal with it). Too bad Rav Avigdor Miller ,zt’l, is no longer in this world. I would like to suggest a couple of mature Torah personalities who possibly can be resources for you. Please contact me through TYW.
As another matter: have all the commentors looked at the parents?
I see people who are married to cell phones even while pushing their kids in strollers, the NY Times as a source of truth (not to mention tabloids), long chats with friends while their children restlessly wait for attention from Mommy or Tatty, insolent driving/parking manners, “I don’t agree with the Rabbi” when Das Torah fails to satisfy their yetzer harah.
Baruch Hashem, our own children are raising their children OUT OF NEW YORK. Not that NYC is the only problem, just an intense version of the galus problem.
How many parents have goyim raising their children with occasional side trips to treif eateries; immodest style in their homes; temptations to husbands,etc.,etc.?
Having seen Rav Teitelbaum’s many achievements and read most of his published columns, I have to say Yasher koach for bringing more light on this tzunami of toevah!
– Zeidie in Flatbush
# 104 – Your post is beautifully written and eloquently expressed.
I just didn’t understand what its got do with the topic in question.
Once again Rabbi Teitelbaum says it as it should be said.
Thank you R’ Teitelbaum. What Rav Teitelbaum is saying is so obvious and makes such common sense. I recently sat at a table of a family where three generations are Yirei Hashem and Talmidei Chachamim. I asked myself “what did they do right?” Their grandfather – taught his family about the ‘Golden Middle Way’ and I often heard him mention this important principle. As the Rambam mentions, extremes are not the way to go, except in exceptional circumstances. Today so many families lack normality. It’s not surprising that so many children are lost to the joy of Torah and Mitzvos. It’s so important to remember that no matter what others are doing – one doesnt need to follow like sheep. Sometimes painful decisions are necessary to save one’s children. People need to have their childrens best interest in mind and not make decisions based on what others will think. Hashem made us all Btzalmo. We should have confidence to do what we know Hashem wants from us. If Hashem gave you a child, you most likely have the ability to make the best decisions for that child. Of course one must ask advice, but decisions should be based on whats best, not what looks best.
ZeitBsimcha ! HOW RIGHT YOU ARE! Will his pleas be heard and acted upon by those that can facilitate change?
So what changes do you want to the “system” and how far do we go?
Understanding what you read
It’s a shame that so many people can’t seem to understand what they read or misinterpret what is said. In no way does the article undermine the psak of our gedolim and as the Torah tells us we must listen to them even when they say “Right is left and left is right.” One must have a posek that he must always follow no matter what he says.
The article takes exclusive aim at the Doegs, Achitofels, and Korach’s who live in every generation, and are still much alive today, and often succeed in their mission as they have done in the past. It’s these “self proclaimed agitators” who are the root of some of our problems and it’s directly at them that the article takes aim.
So please stop misinterpreting his words or taking them out of context and this in any way lowers the esteem we must have for our Torah leaders.
Signed
Just a reader
mkygeb,
In your first post (#78) you seem to say you have gone off the deep end… in post #104, you sound pretty well learned, and sound like a true eved Hashem?!!
I’m confused, who/what r u?
now again #116 – mkygeb your confusing us
MR FACTS #104 —VERY WELL WRITTEN AND ON TARGET!!!!
REAGARDLESS OF THE TRUTH OF RABBI TEITELBAUMS LETTER IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN PUBLISHED FOR THE PUBLIC. THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED PRIVATELY WITH THE GEDOLIM SO NOT TO DENEGRATE THE FUTURE P’SOKIM OF THE GEDOLIM. OTHERWISE ANY PSAK CAN BE AND WILL BE DISMISSED, IF ONE DOES NOT LIKE IT, BY SAYING THE GODOL WAS MISINFORMED. HASHEM RIYACHAIM!!!!!!!
#119 Rebmoish-
I believe you are not correct. This very important letter should be published tofor public consumption, but it should have been read, and re-read by Rabbi Teitelbaum’s “rebbe” for accuracy and conformaty to the hlacha. Certainly, it could have been sent to “those agitators” for private comment first, and those sections should have been edited out.
The main thrust of the article is, however, very improtant. If one should learn through Seder Taharos, try doing it without the picture books for Mesechtas Keilim. Is it possible to know what is being described? however, if one was a Boy Scout or a Chef, Keilim is chrystal clear! Yes the gedolei hador of yesteryear would not go uout to play during their recess, but would run back to learn. That is why they became the Gedolei hador? Is it really possible to have 13million goedolei Hador? Every chassidus has a Rebbe and Chasidim. Can it be that everyone will be Rebbe, and noone a Chasid? Without kosher outlets, we are dooming our children to seek their fun outside of our realm of possibilities.
There will be no agreement on what is a Kosher outlet, just aws their is no agreement on whether “daas torah” is psak halacha or advice. Everything is Kol Elokim Chaim. It depends on where one is holding. Every positive point made is valid. It is time for each of us to actively particapte in making kosher putlet5s available to our children. Sometimes, the talmid can effectuate a change that even the Rebbe will agree to.
Kesiva VChasima Tova
to jf891:
While what Rabbi Teitelbaum speaks words of wisdom,concerts may be a positive thing but a circus is another issue. According to RASHI in Parshas EMOR “LO TELCHU B’CHUKOS HAGOI”
refers to circuses among other things
To the writer who mentioned Rush Limbaugh and Rabbi Teitelbaum in one sentence, there is a big LeHavdil. Half of what Rush Limbaugh says is outright false.
FayMemMemLamed # 120
All agree with the main thrust of the article!!!!! What I am criticizing is the part of the letter which addresses the psak of our gedolim in public.