Reply To: Why do you believe in Science?

Lakewood001,

I never said that the Torah claims that the words were literally written down by G-d (other than the Aseres HaDibros). The claim is that they were said by G-d (e.g. VaYomer Hashem el Moshe or VaYidaber Hashem el Moshe) and/or commanded by G-d to be written down (???????? ???????? ????? ???-?????????? ???????, ??????????? ???-??????-??????????). The oral tradition clearly states that the rest of the Torah was also dictated by G-d (or commanded by G-d), but even leaving that out there is a still a claim that a substantial portion of the book is authored by G-d.

Your evidence to the contrary was that all the other books that we have are written by men. Although that doesn’t speak directly to the question at hand (the source of this particular book) and is therefore weak, it is evidence. I countered that evidence (weakening it still further) by pointing out that all those books claim to have been written by men and therefore do not speak very much to a book that claims that G-d authored, at the very least, large segments.

You responded: “it’s only evidence (weak evidence) when the claimant himself is claiming the book is written by him, and it is established that the claimant exists and writes books.”

You are correct that outside evidence that the claimant exists enhances the evidence of authorship from within the text but it is not a prerequisite. Once again. Evidence is any fact that makes X more likely in contrast with Y. If you are dealing with a criminal case and you are the prosecutor, then evidence for your side is anything that increases the likelihood of guilt (however small an increase); if you are the defense, then anything that decreases the likelihood of guilt is evidence.

Here, anything that increases the likelihood that the Torah was authored by G-d (as opposed to men) is evidence for me, and anything that increases the likelihood that the Torah was written by men (as opposed to G-d) is evidence for you.

The issue is not PROOF but EVIDENCE. There is very little in this world that can be proven (obviously your “all other books are written by men” argument is not proof either, but evidence.)

The three items I mentioned above are all EVIDENCE. They increase the likelihood (compared to if they did not exist) that the Torah was written by G-d as opposed to men.

The point that I was bringing from the prophecies regarding the fate of the Jewish people, was not the “do good or you will suffer” aspect but the nuanced prophecy of being scattered around the world yet maintaining our Jewish religion and identity (something that is not predictable). Being persecuted but never wiped out. And finally returning to our land.

That these prophecies have come true increase the likelihood that they were authored by G-d and not men (as an aside many prophecies are verifiable).