daniela -“Health, maybe I am wrong, but I believe that stating no one else was around, won’t hold, because in such a facility, many people are usually around (including the seniors themselves), and also because she did not reply the dispatcher that “no one else is around” but rather kept mentioning the policy (imagine this recording played over and over to a jury, and also consider the fact that her voice sounds cold).”
That was a question I posed to 2scents and he said there were others around.
“Resuscitation amounts to assault if a DNR exists: EMT personnel would have taken her vital signs and waited a bit.”
No it isn’t -if they are not aware of one or they are not shown one. No, they wouldn’t -they treat right away. The DNR at this point is irrevelant.
“Even if there is no DNR but it’s a senior person and we start resuscitation after 7+min, it can be argued that CPR should not be attempted at all or should only be attempted for a short period; instead they kept working on her until she could be transported to hospital, somehow alive.”
You say “it can be argued” -you should write I’m arguing -noone else would ever argue your so-called point. And many EMS crews that are paramedic staffed will pronounce death in the field after an unsucessful resuscitation attempt.
“Again, if a DNR existed, those who pull such a trick don’t get away with it, not anywhere but most certainly not in California.”
They get away with it if they are not aware of one or they are not shown one.
“So the nurse has now to deny she was aware a DNR existed, even if one is now produced (would not be surprised). Glad I am not in her shoes.”
She doesn’t have to deny or agree to anything. If she was aware of one and had access to it -I’m sure she would have given it to EMS or advised the EMS crew where to pick it up, eg. -“In the pt’s chart on the ground floor”.
“2cents there are situations in which medical professionals have not offered “futile” resuscitation without living wills of any sort and I know some of those cases went to litigation and the medical professionals won. If the prospects are bleak, and if nowhere did the patient express they want to try everything until the very end, one can defend their actions in court. But if resuscitation is appropriate at +7 it surely was appropriate at +3 and earlier. Everyone knows that (especially given that the dispatcher is saying so right now) and someone with training knows that even better.”
Again you’re confusing two things. I’m not about to try to explain the difference to you in detail -suffice it to say in the first case they were the medical authority -they have the legal right to decide what or how much, if any, resuscitation is needed.
EMS works on Medical direction off-line (protocols) and on-line. The protocols don’t differentiate between times of arrival in cases of arrest.
“ubiquitin I am not sure if #2 is correct within California legal framework. I believe it isn’t. The facility may not offer CPR trained personnel on site, nor does the dry cleaner, but still if we R”L get sick at the dry cleaner, and they call 911, they are expected to follow instructions, even though they are unqualified.”
Hardly anyone follows EMS dispatcher’s instructions. Perhaps they should though.