The Islamic Republic of Iran News Agency Reports: Thousands of US-based Rabbis and Jews opposing the nature and policies of the Zionist regime held protest demonstration in front of Israel’s mission in New York Tuesday. The demonstration, organized by two Jewish anti-Zionism organizations, was held under tight security measures.
The protesters chanted slogans against the evil and inhuman policies of the Zionist regime against defenseless people in occupied lands.
“The US and Israel are acting against the God’s will,” one of the protesters told IRNA on condition of anonymity.
He referred to the freedom of abortion in the US and Israel as examples of the policies adopted against the God’s instructions.
A Christian protester who had joined the Jewish demonstrators said that cases like legalizing “alternative lifestyle” in the US and Israel indicated the clear opposition of the US and Israeli policy-makers to the rule of the Lord.
“Calling US as the ‘Great Satan’ in Iran, is indeed an insult to the devil because Satan was once serving the Lord and then rebelled against him while the US and Israeli officials are moving against His will from the outset,” another demonstrator, Bob said.
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111 Responses
Was this a raly peformed by self hating jews ” neturei karta”?
This was carrier by the A.P. and the French agency AFP as well.
So Sick, that Jews and Israel are the SATAN in the eyes of the world. What about the medical care being given 24/7 in Ashkolon for the terrorists of Gaza? Where are our kidnapped soldiers, ask them?
Well, it isn’t on NK’s website, so somehow they missed out on this one. Has anyone got a picture?
Why would you use this source of news, when everybody knows there were NO THOUSAND of people?
Besides, printing aricles of this nature, is only promoting ‘SINAAS CHINUM’ which we should refrain from during these times.
Moshe Fox, If it follows Daas Torah, than certainly
According to YW news, this protest seems to be a typical anti-Semitic Neturei Karta one. But it certainly wasn’t so.
This demonstration was organized by the Hisachdus Harabonim, the Central Rabbinical Congress of U.S.A and Canada, to protest the brutal behavior of the Israeli police against religious Jewry in the State of Israel, as well as their legal system’s discrimination against religious Jewry.
The latest in the series of events is their arrest of five scholars and holding them without bail, solely for the sin of participating in a rally protesting the removal by the municipal government of Bais Shemesh of a poster calling women to wear modest clothing when entering the religious quarter of Bais Shemesh. The five are being treated brutally in prison by the police. One of them, Rabbi Moshe Leib Friedman, was beaten over the head by Officer Uri Algazy, who yelled at him, “You want to see how I hit a Jew!”
In another case, a Rabbi was arrested without being shown any charges against him, or the name of the person bringing charges. The Internal Security Minister, Avi Dichter, issued an “immunity document” calling for all evidence to stay sealed. Such a document is normally issued only in cases of national security.
These are only examples of the day-after-day behavior of the Israeli authorities against religious Jews in the State of Israel. The Israelis’ goal is to enforce secularism and make sure that religious Jewish communities establish no foothold.
It is a well known fact that the government in Israel can “legally” arrest citizens for an indefinite time, without allowing them to meet with a lawyer, stand before a judge, or even be informed of the charges against them. Tens of people were arrested by the Israeli Government in this Communist fashion.
Yeshiva World, we urge you to change the header of this article and the anti-Zionist way of publishing it. Again, this has nothing do do with Neturei Karta.
There are many strange things about this report, not the least of which is we don’t find reports in the regular news wires. Secondly, the report mentions neither the arrested Jews nor the issue of the Palestinians, which indicates neither Satmar nor NK. Especially since it expresses explicit criticism of the US without even connecting it to US policy in the Middle East. Very strange, including the fact that the protesters were organized by SATMAR itself in Williamsburg……
Just because IRNA reported it the way they did, doesn’t make it accurate.
The fact is that this pro-Torah rally was held by the Hisachdus HaRabbonim. They always bus in thousands of Yidden when protesting zionist violence.
Just because Tisha B’Av is over, does not give license to attack our leaders. That is the case even if you happened to belong to a different sect, and don’t agree with these leaders positions. You should be ashamed of yourselves for ripping into any Rabbonim.
There were many choshova Rabbonim at the rally. And it was packed with thousands of Yidden. The report above would make you think it was organized by the N.K., but in fact it wasn’t. It was organized by mainstream leaders of Klal Yisroel.
It was to protest the ongoing harassment of Yidden by the zionist regime in the holy land, may they soon be removed with the coming of Moshiach.
AIN SHUM KESHER L’N.K.
WHY YW DO YOU PORTRAY IT SO?
Please do not lump Satmar with NK.
This rally sounds like “Well, we got nothing better to do on 9 Av…G-d forbid we should play Monopoly or go to a shiur…so we’ll have a rally and make everyone more miserable.”
Bar26 Want to tell us who the 5torah scholars from RBS might be? Are those the rock throwing, bus and passenger destroyers? If these group of rabbis are SO concerned with police brutality, where were they after Amona? So full of baloney.
The chashuva rabbonim of klal yisroel were with their kehillas learning kinas, and megillas eicha. This is the typical anti-israel rallies where hundreds (the muslims were there)show up, in contrast to the hundreds at the UN demonstrating and davening for the kidnapped soldiers at the same time.
TO ALL THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ ENGLISH:
PLEASE READ, READ, READ & RE-READ & RE-READ AGAIN the above story which was taken WORD FOR WORD from the IRNA – and enlighten us all by telling us how it was portrayed by YW as having been a demonstration by NK.
Oh!
Don’t forget to retract your blatant accusations against us.
Waiting……..
It mainly consisted of several big Rabbonim and Dayonim saying Tehilim and davening for an end to the anti-Torah government in Eretz Yisroel.
If indeed there were thousands of demonstrators then there seems to be a determined blackout of news coverage. Whether or not you agree with the demonstrators this tells you something sinister about the news media. I can’t find anything about it on the Internet
Joseph says it was organized by “mainstream leaders of Klall Yisroel”!
Really?
Like Limoshul who?
(Chassidim:) Skulener Rebbe, Tosh Rebbe, Bobov Rebbe, Skver Rebbe, Belz Rebbe, Gur Rebbe, Lelov Rebbe, Nadvorne Rebbe, Stolin Rebbe, Rachmanstrivka Rebbe??????
(Litvish:) Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman, Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz, Rav Shmuel Berenbaum, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Henoch Lebowitz, Rav Zelig Epstein, Rav Chaim Stein, Rav Chaim Epstein, Rav E.B. Wachtfogel, Rav Herschel Shachter, Rav Shmuel Aurbach, Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel???????
(Sephardim:) Chacham Ovadia Yosef, Rav Dovid Abuchatzera, Rav Dovid Yosef, Rav Yackov Hillel, Rav Shlomo Amar, Rav Harrari Raful, Rav Murry Masilton????
Like who?
Which mainstream leaders?
Please tell us all. Its important to know who are leaders are.
Thanks.
It is also important to know which Posek allowed this to take place on Tisha B’av. There are HUGE shailos here.
You might have shailos. You might disagree. But they have a right to follow their Daas Torah.
If you want the full list of Rabbonim who sponsored and endorsed it, I suggest you call the Hisachdus. Their number is listed in the Brooklyn white pages.
(BTW the editor used to state he doesn’t participate in the debates on YW. Change of policy here?)
esg78, When the Agudah has its Tehilim gathering, attracting thousands> in Manhattan, the mainstream media completely ignores it as well. So its no raya.
The drive-by media only covers what furthers their agenda.
Islamic Republic of Iran News
their goal is to make israel look bad. zionist and all. as anti semetic stuff. wants all yidden out of EY (and the rest of the world)
The Hisachdis might not like zionizim but the HAFGANA is more an internel argument about the hanhalat hamidina.
Moshe Fox, gingy just answered your general question. He didn’t indicate whose or which Daas Torah he is referring too. So why are you questioning his mere mention of Daas Torah?
You seem to knock any Daas Torah you don’t agree with by attempting to redefine them as not your Daas Torah, therefore you don’t consider them to be Daas Torah.
How sad.
Bottom line is there was more than ample Daas Torah here.
OH! Gosh, how silly of me!
The Hisachdus!
Yeah they are mainstream leaders of Klal Yisroel.
Sure…….
Last I checked they represent Satmar. Period.
I never said they don’t have the right to follow their leaders – just don’t start with your “mainstream leader” garbage – when they are FAR from being mainstream.
We don’t need a list of all the Rabbonim – we just want the top five – the REAL “mainstream” Rabbonim.
If you do not have that info – which I’m sure that you DO NOT – then please don’t make statements like yours.
I’m sure you will run along now and call your buddies to find out who signed……….
PS: We happen to be in possesion of the posters calling for everyone to attend, so please be accurate in your fact-finding mission.
No I won’t. As I said, you can look them up in the white pages if you care to know. It is more than Satmar. In fact the Hisachdus itself is a lot more than Satmar. Do a little research. In any event I would consider Satmar to be at least as mainstream (and certainly much larger) as any of the other chasiduses/litvish/sefardim you listed in your previous comment.
What got so under your skin that you changed your policy of the editor doesn’t participate?
Moshe Fox, I’ve never indicated their is one and only one Daas Torah, in todays day and time. I challenge you to point to anywhere I said there is only one Daas Torah.
How about this.
You said: “There were many choshova Rabbonim”.
Tell us Five.
Thanks.
Mr. Editor, are you saying that the Rabbonim that participated were not choshov?
Sheesh!
Why can’t you answer a simple question without answering me with a question.
It is becoming more & more obvious that you do not have a clue as to who attended & urged others to attend.
To answer your silly question:
No. I am not saying that at all – so please do not put words into my mouth.
Just answer: WHICH CHOSHUVER RABBONIM ATTENDED?
I have no idea who attended, but I’m willing to bet any money that I know who they are affiliated with……
Prove me wrong.
Go ahead.
#16, #19 Don’t be so quick to criticize.
If you’d live in Yerushalayim or in any other religious neighborhood, you would believe every word. The police brutality towards religious Jews throughout Israel is extremely vicious!! Besides which, religious Jews are being arrested without being charged for anything. And they can be languishing in jails for months or years without a charge. It’s not only the 5 being held in prisons. There are many many more. Believe it or not.
The government in Israel makes sure to conceal such brutality and arresting of citizens for no reason whatsoever. And this is why the Hisachdus Harabonim here in Yerushalayim, as well as other gedolim like Rav Eliyahiv shlit”a and many more, have orchestrated the protest in front of the Israeli embassy in New York for yesterday.
No, seriously, can someone please name at least a few reputable Rabonim who took part? Somebody SHOULD KNOW,,
YW, Isn’t there a klal that a Jew answers a question with another question? Shtait in der Gemorah…
I think the reason I got under your skin is because I was accused by someone on a previous discussion of being a “YW operative/agent.” So, in contradiction with your general policy of not participating in the discussions, are you out to prove otherwise? You can just announce so!
I will not be drawn into whose Rabbonim are/bigger/better/more choshov. If you want names of participants, do what any good news agency or journalist does. Pick up the phone and call. Then let me know if you think those names are not mainstream or choshov.
BTW, you said you have a copy of the poster. Were there any names on your copy? And even if not, who would you be willing to bet any money that they are affiliated with ?
The names of the Rabbonim are public. They were there publically in the street. My point is that I don’t need to prove to you their tzidkus. If you are going to doubt it, I will likely not convince you to change any preconceived notions.
Moshe Fox, I do not believe I’ve criticized any “frum, non-charedi institution…” If I am mistaken, I was mistaken. What I may have criticized is a position they took. And if so, such criticized wasn’t mine, but I was merely FOLLOWING a position of men greater than me.
It was just a show of force, from the Z”allmen camp”, its don for internal prepress only, they are trying to prove that they are running the show.
There is no meager issue going on now’ its just finding a way of having a confrontation with the Israeli government.
It’s a shame that that for internal prepress they are breeding “netirah karteh” and then when “netirah karteh” acts up they go ahead and condemn them.
I know from a direct source that this story was sent a round to news wires around the world from a “neturah karteh web site.
Where are all that condemned “neturah karteh” in the past winter to condemn the CRC now?
Let’s go Dov Hikind!
re posting No 10 by Bar26
Bar26 stated…
“solely for the sin sin of participating in a rally protesting the removal by the municipal government of Bais Shemesh of a poster calling women to wear modest clothing when entering the religious quarter of Bais Shemesh”
I live in RBS and I think that you need to get your facts straight. Lets define “participating in a rally” …
These so called “scholars” were not standing peacefully by the side of the road protesting. They are not the “victims” of the Israeli system
They were blocking traffic, destroying public property, (uprooting trees, burning rubbish bins, etc) they were stoning cars and buses with paving stones from the sidewalk. In short they were acting much like terrorists dressed in black and white. They make everyone’s life in Beit Shemesh misrable and dangerious !!!
They are total hillul hashem and deserve to be remanded into cutody just like any common criminal.
go yw editor!
Interesting how the Iranian news organization got ahold of this story so fast? Were they tipped off in advance? Who would be able to contact them ? Hmmmm.
torahis1, Like someone said in the Badatz article, YW must have good reason to ban your “comments.” I won’t criticize your silly statement anymore than it has already been roundly criticized when you made the same remark in the Badatz article. All the same points apply here.
One thing I must criticize you for though is your comment that maybe Moshiach is coming today? What do you mean ? You ought to be ready that he is coming today!On the other hand, I take it as a compliment to get the rare privilege of having YW Editor answer my comments four times in less than one hour! You do not see that very often around here!
Like Ed Koch is fond of saying, if you agree with me 7 out 10 times vote for me; if you agree with me 10 out of 10 times see a psychiatrist!
Jospeph,
1. To make matters clear, I was not the one who accused you of being an operative. It was origated by someone else , I just went along with the shtick for fun!
2. I dont agree with much of what you say but I must give you credit for one thing! You can do a ‘wriggling out routine’ like no one else I know,,,KUDOS!
I was at the protest and I know who the Iranian reporter heard those
statements (condemning the US) from. There were two Christians there demonstrating against
abortions that take place in the same building as the Israeli
consulate, and also against alternative lifestyle marriages which are being
legalized by the NY state senate. There was another man with them who
said he was Jewish, even claimed to be a talmid of Rabbi Avigdor
Miller, who was helping them hand out their literature. Their main
goal was to fight abortion and alternative lifestyle rights, so I’m sure they had no
qualms about condemning the U.S. along with the Zionists. It was bad
reporting on the part of the Iranian news to claim that these people
were among the “protesters”. Satmar would never condemn the U.S.
Even the anti Israel NY Times missed this regional story. Wow those Iranians sure do have their ear to the ground.
This confirms THAT AN ANTI-HAFGANAH HAFGANAH MUST TAKE PLACE NOW TO counter those “Religious” Jews who openly support random acts of violence.
As if the “protesters” in Bet Shemesh were doing something “Holy”?!! No one said that signs couldn’t be hung. The police didn’t want them hanging them on traffic signs which would cause accidents!!!
We need to demonstrate to the world that we in fact do not support the burning of garbage cans and pelleting rocks at busses!!!
SAY NO TO THUGS !!!
#35 It was not only orchestrated by the Bedatz, but as I mentioned earlier, Rabbi Eliyashiv shlit”a and other Gedolei Hador seeing the situation, supported it fully. Stop bashing Gedolei Hador.
#36 (it’s before Yom Kippur, in case you don’t realize it) if you claim that you know that it’s from Neturei Karta. Why don’t you call Rabbi Weiss at the Eidah Chareidis here in Yerushalayim and ask him directly if they were behind this protest? You’ll get a clear confirmation.
Bar26,
Whats your beef with me? I just asked names of Rabonim who were there? Why am I being accused of bashing Gedolei Hador?????
nameless, I am cognizant of that. But thanks for not falling prey to that misnomer!
I think some of the comment #’s have changed, with older comments being added later, rearranging all subsequent comment #’s.
‘Joseph finally taking it from the YW Editor… maybe Moshiach is coming today?’
I fail to see the connection between Joseph taking ‘heat’ from the editor to the coming of Moshiach, EVEN in jest…can someone please enlighten me??? I mean ist a joke supposed to be funny at least??
colour war, maybe…BUT MOSHIACH,,????
torahis1
Who are you to decide what the BaDaTZ should or shouldn’t do? the fact is that they represent a big tzibur of choshuve yidden, and are acting according to their mesoire that they’ve received from giants of the previous generations including such luminaries like the MaHaRiL Diskin and Rav Yosef Chaim Sonenfeld, Who without a Doubt would also be branded as terrorists and mobsters.
Even if the protest was because of completely innocent people being arrested for no reason in EY(which I am not sure is the case), what would protesting in the US accomplish? The Israeli government is just going to ignore it. The only thing it does is give ammunition of the Sonei Yisrael. To make it even worse, it was done on Tisha B’Av. Unless I am proved otherwise, but I can not believe true Daas Torah would behind this.
#51 see #45. If you’d live here and see the rishos of the government, you’d believe that Gedolei Hador were behind it. If it’s still hard for you to accept it as true, pick up the phone and call anyone at the Eidah Chareidis or other Rabbonim here.
gingy
Might be the right time to reread the biography** of Rav Yosef Chaim z”tl and note his love, concern and connection to the simple & irreligious jew and his amicable dealings with Rav Kook zt”l. He is probably the first well-known “settler” who went to extremes to buy and settle parcels of land in E”Y (even a $$ deal on shabbos)!!
** of course it depends what book you are reading, who wrote it, & for what purpose?
#51
If the world knows what’s happening here, the Israeli government will have a harder time concealing their sadistic actions as they’ve been doing until now. Have you heard a word about it the last few months? Last week 60+ choshuva Rabbanim appealed to a UN commissioner (I think it was the UN) here in Yerushalayim about this issue. Have you heard a word about it? Of course, not. The media is not allowed to publicize it. And that was the reason for the protest in America. The Rabbonim hope to open the eyes of the world as to what’s happening here.
Why the Rabbonim decided that Tisha b’Av is a good time for the protest, I wouldn’t know.
bar26
It about time that you visit RamatBS, talk to the residents and see the mess that the 5 “torah scholars” did! Those who cover up for Jewish terrorists are the sadists. The worlds eyes are open now we are waiting for yours to.
THOUSANDS?! Wow that’s alot. Were they shooting guns in the air too? Sorry only the Islamidiots do that.
Bklynmom and Moshe Fox
I know I touched a raw nerve and the truth hurts the most. But you just have to face the facts, that the real re-writers of history were those so called frum guys who were ashamed of the zealotry of those Tzadikim, and because they were so revered by the real Erlicha Yidden, they changed the facts of history to confirm with their contorted views. And by the way In their time they had their share of mud slinging from “moderates” like you.
I happen to be a eighth generation yerushalmi, so I know the facts as they are from the true sources.
i don’t know so much but
1. the israeli ARUTZ 2 TV found out that the people who throw the stone an the busses was’nt chareidim, it’s was YASSA”M policemans that was wearing block & white
2. thats true that tisha b’av is time for kinos but people who not saying because any reasen may go to a pratest that organized by the CRC
3. wat’s with mitzvas pidyon shvuyim? pikuach nefesh?
4. yw yes, it’s was big enough and seriosly enough you should informaid it in your self and not from IRNA
5. yes it’s was there at least 5 thousent people
6. a good evening for eveybody
The rebellious regime currently maintaining its tyrannical choke hold around the lives of true Torah Jews will inevitably fall. Even the zionists themselves realize their “game is up.” They have no philosophical values that they maintain. Even the false ideology they tried to portray has since fallen into dis waste.
Piny, I would love to respond to you, but you must first re-write your entire comment in simple, English.
All I understood was something about “yes YW”.
Thanks.
The kofrim have nothing to live for anymore. They are fighting amongst themselves. One zionist is shlugging up another. They don’t know what they stand for.
So in response, in trying to solve their internal conflicts they will hatch on to the maintainers of the faith.
They have always harassed, beaten, and committed violence on those who are Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos.
There youths are lost souls. Either they return to Judaism or they fall into the despair known as zionism.
There days, like those of all the enemies of Klal Yisroel, are inevitably numbered. The truth always prevails.
We must continue to daven and learn Torah and say Tehilim. We should continue our mass rallies in support of the victims of zionism. And Hashem will respond positively to our tefilos and save our brethren.
YW Editor – Ouch! You are in a bit of a mood today. First Joseph, now Piny! (not that I am sticking up for Joseph!)
I loved the accent in Piny’s post. It is obvious that YW has a following even in areas where Yiddish is the primary language. Come on, I am sure you can figure out what he was saying.
GOM
i’m sorry i was jost trying to say something though my english is not so perfekt if you want yuo can delete it
have a nice night
lol
yea the police glued on peyos and beards and threw rocks while regular yidden were on they’re way to mincha and then they arrested the yidden.
My friends in RBS would love to believe that but they all no differently. It is unimagnable the agony those residents face having to explain to their children how beni Torah act like animals
z, it is hardly inconceivable that the zionist would make trouble in disguise of their enemies.
I keep hearing about this ideology called zionism. What is it? Can someone help explain to me what it stands for?
The land the zionists keep giving to the Arabs. So it must not be that it stands for keeping the land. It doesn’t keep the Torah. It doesn’t stand for the preservation of Jewish life, as they endlessly fight needless wars.
Or does it not stand for anything other than political power and Torah hatred?
I for sure believe zionist are capable of that and worse. And maybe they did instigate. Nonetheless the issue remains- is there any heter for beni Torah to act like animals. That is what is happening and the sooner we face it the sooner we can cure it.
I am a total anti-zionist.
I am also anti-crime.
I agree with GOM. Whats gotten into YWE head today? Making choizek of Piny for his language skills? And this after going head-to-head with Joseph over whether the Rabbonim are choshev enough or mainstream enough?
A bit too much coffee maybe?
z: That is the problem. You have criminals running the justice system.
Bar26, First of all the protest in America was not orchastrated by B’datz or R’ Elyshav. Second, Protesting in the US did not thecause. In the eyes of Americans it is something orchastrated by a much of religious fanatics, whom they would never take seriously. I am not saying that’s true that’s just how Americans see it. True Daas Torah would see it as a dvar poshit, that protesting in America would acomplish nothing.
sorry for the typo. I meant to say “Second, protesting in the US will not help the cause.”
moe- so you think it is not a crime to block traffic , burn garbage cans and throw rocks at buses ?
Are you defending these animal acts ?
Zionism is wrong -therefore throw rocks at people ?
The charedim who live in RBS are happy that the police took a stand and would like to live a normal life without fear of being hit with rocks.
If your friends want to burn garbage cans and riot in peace there is plenty of room in Bagdad.
Again Zionism is wrong evil and against the Torah.
TRUE. But please explain to everyone why this translates into a Heter to riot.
Is there anybody out there that can explain the connection?
The mainstraem leader is the torah . The chumash the bavli the yerischalmi and all the poskim all the say that its forbid to have a own land before the moschiac is coming ” Pireod ” that its no argument if you lrean the torah you would see if sombody became a sin KLAL YISROEL WHEN OUT BERABIM AND KILL HIM LIKE ” pinchos” in haschem make him because of that KOHEN . Haschem didn’t say its was a CHILOL HASCAEM the history schows that the isreali goverment killed many of thousend jews who are torah followers like ” pinchos segelof ” rabbi dihon ” all the tzoros of klal yisroel are coming from them . The blame is on your pepole where are you why are you sitting silent
Moshe Fox, How do you explain an ideology that wants to rule the holy land, but discards the Torah that gives us the holy land (based upon your description of the “secular” zionists, which constitute a clear majority of zionists)?
And if its wars aren’t needlessly shedding Jewish blood, how do you explain Lebanon II (with 150 Jewish lives lost)?
Check the past history of klal yisroel during the time of Herod, Chashmonaim, Bayis Sheini, Queen Iezevel, etc. (too numerous to quote), who uprooted Torah with talmidei chachamin during the time of Jewish soverignity in the land of Israel!!!!! Nothing happening now is out of synch with past history, the lesson to be learned is to do better.
torahis1, that is a figment of your very vivid imagination. The few who engage in such abominable behavior are few and represent themselves. They are far outnumbered and outshined by the multiples of Chesed and Ahava that exists in the Torah world, and that attracts many Baal Teshuvas, more than ever before in history.
Moshe Fox, A milchomos mitzva is a war dictated directly by Hashem. How do you justify the zionists starting military action in Lebanon II, knowing full-well it will lead to more loss of Jewish life than it was to have ostensibly have saved (the 2 kidnapped soldiers–which even that it failed)?
torahis1, the point of that article being that even one such incident is one to many for our community. Relatively speaking they are few and far between, and don’t register on the richter scale (relatively speaking, again.)
Moshe, Who gave the zionists the authority to decide for themselves what is a milchomos mitzvah and when to shed Jewish blood?
It was obvious even to any casual observer at the outset of Lebanon II, that it would cost more Yiddishe neshomos than it could potentially save.
Joseph, by calling the Lebanon war needless you are falling for our enemies propaganda, and are simply wrong. The enemy has admitted that they would not have kidnapped the soldiers had they known of the ferociousness of Israel’s response.
From Jpost – Aug 27th, 2006
Regarding the killing of three soldiers and the capture of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev on July 12, which sparked the 34-day war, Nasrallah said, “We did not think, even one percent, that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of this magnitude. You ask me, if I had known on July 11… that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not.”
GOM
Dvorah you are a welcomed voice of sechel from the holy land, thanks for joining the YW blog world.
torahis1,
I didn’t read the Mishpacha article you referenced, but to say that the hate of frum people overshadows the chesed seems like a huge stretch.
The huge numbers of chareidi people involved in chesed massively overshadow the small numbers of people who throw stones and burn garbage dumpsters. Not to mention the myriad types of chesed that people do and the personal sacrifices that they make to do that. Is there any other group of people on earth who are so devoted to each other?
You mention the bnei and bnos yisroel who are turned off by the intolerance of chareidim. I think that those people, perhaps through no fault of their own, have issues with their own frumkeit and therefore only see the bad and not the good, and thats why to them the bad seems to overshadow the good. I am not blaming them and I think we all need to make them feel accepted and wanted. But I don’t think that this means that our intolerance actually overshadows our kindness.
You also mention outsiders who are turned off from yidishkeit due to our intolerance. I’m sure there are cases where some people are turned off, but baalei tshuva are pouring in, as are non-frum people who send their children to chareidi schools. Just ask Lev L’Achim, Shuvu, Nechomas Yisroel, Oorah etc.
I don’t mean to say we are perfect – of course we all need to work on our middos. But if someone looks at chareidi society objectively I can’t imagine how our hate can possible overshadow our kindness.
Post nos. 84 is really delightful!
‘Chacham Bagoyim Tamin’, yes. I just ‘LOVE’ when commentators quote political giants and then incorporate their ‘two cents’ as if their opinion will ‘splatter our kitchen walls’!
Devorah,
What Winston Churchill said is priceless. But HE didnt use Joseph’s sentiments as an example of emotions not backed by truth(not that I always agree with him), you did!
Can you please elaborate on your brainstorm analogy and tell us how he is messing with the facts?
Aborting Jewish children is as bad as kissing and hugging Islamic Nazis.
Protest or ignore both but don’t turn a blind eye to just one.
You’re a good man, Charlie Brown.
torah-his you have a history of commenting here (on the ones not bad enough for YW to filter out) with the grass is greener on the other side attitude. You only see darkness where there is light.
The author is speaking of the few and far between incidents. Even in such minute numbers we in the chareidi community consider it intolerable. The fact is such incidents are few and far between, despite you seeing darkness all over the chareidi place.
Your grudging admission that the chareidi world is full of chesed and ahava speaks volumes towards your negative outlook. You are blinded to all the people joining the chareidi community from the baal teshuva movement. The few leaving are small in numbers. As unfortunate as that is, despite the smallness in numbers, it is by far outweighed by the the enormous and immeasurable amount of good and kindness emanating from the chareidi community.
Dvorah, Joseph has been a beacon of light on YW. He has illuminated for me many points I might have otherwise missed. He has shined information on facts otherwise we on the YW community may have overlooked. Your misguided quote from Churchill notwithstanding, you should be providing us with any alleged facts, rather than lobbing misguided criticism.
GOM, who cares what our enemies propaganda or what they think is. The fact is the zionist government wasted Jewish lives in that useless war, that accomplished nothing. They do so all the time. It was clearcut that more lives would be lost than saved by sending the army into Lebanon.
MF, on what halachik basis has the government gone into Lebanon costing 100 Jewish military lives + 50 Jewish civilian lives? None. I cannot for a moment believe that R. Waldenberg, or anyone for that matter, would allow the destruction of about 150 Jewish lives to possibly save two Jewish lives. What has going into Lebanon accomplished? It was mismanaged? What could it have potentially accomplished if it was not mismanaged?
Moe, how does one join the religious comminity through the ba’al tshuva movement? I’ve been interested in learning Torah for a while now, and celebrating holidays and such, but it seems hard for an outsider to get involved, so I usually just read articles on the internet. Any suggestions?
Mr. Fox, infrastructure damage is never worth one Jewish life, let alone 150.
Your silly attempts to equate opposing the boneheaded zionists with supporting the Arabs not only holds no water, but illuminates your wrongheadedness.
noname, please contact your local orthodox Rabbi. Also checkout aish.com.
chery,
Despite the fact that I quoted the head of Hizbollah stating that he wouldn’t have kidnapped a jew if he knew that Israel would have taken such strong action against him and his people, you still refer to the war as a waste.
Perhaps if you and many more jews continue to denigrate the military action, and pressure Israel to prevent it from ever doing the same again, he will not be deterred from kidnapping more yidden. I do not think that it is a stretch to say that you and Joseph are giving strength to the enemy. If the enemy believes that pressure from the likes of you and your type has effectively convinced Israel not to use force in RETALIATION for harming jews, they WILL do it again without fear.
I suppose you also think that the US should not go after Al queda just because of the events of Spetember 11th. After all, Americans would die in a war, and anyway it is “unlikely” that the dead would come back anyway.
And finally, what chery, do you think Israel should have done after terrorists attacked and killed the jews. Perhaps we should burn garbage bins, and throw rocks at their buses. Or maybe we should paint swastikas on their property. Or -maybe just go to a holocaust denier conference to wrack up frequent flier miles.
Sorry if I sound bitter – but I am.
GOM
Moshe, No I haven’t had a chance in the past few hours to look it up yet. But what I can tell you is that by definition a Milchomos Mitzvah is an obligatory war. None of the zionist wars are obligatory. In fact, it isn’t conceivable that people who don’t follow the Torah would follow any Torah obligation, let alone be mandated by the Torah to do what only holy people can do–fight a Milchomos Mitzvah.
If I may go by memory alone, Rambam in Hilchos Melachim outlines what is considered a Michomos Mitzvah. 1. To destroy the Cannanim, 2. To destroy Amalek, and 3. When an enemy invades Klal Yisroel.
I assume you are trying to equate Lebanon II with the third case in Rambam. But I would strongly disagree with such an analogy. Firstly, you said the aim was to destroy Hezballa’s infrastructure, not (mainly) to attempt an unlikely rescue of the two kidnapped soldiers. But most importantly, if again memory serves me correctly, a Melech cannot unilaterally decide on his own that a situation constitutes a Milchomos Mitzvah. He needs acquiescence of such a determination from a competent Torah authority (such as a Beis Din or prophet.) Since the zionists (and Israeli law) do not follow the Torah nor recognize its commandments or authority, by definition no zionist war could constitute a Milchomos Mitzvah any more than say if the Jews of Australia were attacked by enemies and the Jews of Australia (rightfully) defended themselves, that that would constitute a “Milchomos Mitzvah.”
Dvorah, by us Yidden the so-called “Dark Ages” were in a fact a period of light and greatness. It was the age of the Geonim. So thank you for your compliment!
Unfortunately for you, that age was a “dark age” indeed. It was full of Torah and light. So all your misguided philosophies could not survive such an age.
GOM, like you realize, you are bitter. And it is better not to address or respond to a bitter man, as what he says is done without the benefit of thoughtfulness. (Suffice to say, you are wrong.)
Chery – Ah – but you did respond.
For the benefit of our dear unbitter friends, who appreciate you saying that dieing trying to save a fellow and protect jews is a “waste”, please provide the reason that I am wrong.
GOM
torahis1,
hmmm, your description of our newfound extremism seems to be a cholent of all the things you don’t like about chareidim (even though I understand that you are one of us).
You mention the fights between chassidim as to who is the rebbe. That may be ugly, but I don’t see how that makes us extremist.
You mention the riots in meah shearim/RBS. the violence was the act of a few not the face of chareidi jewry.
Then you mention the shame parade. I’d like to differentiate between tolerance and acceptance towards anti-torah ideas/concepts/isms as opposed to tolerance and acceptance towards individuals who follow those ideas/concepts/isms. I don’t think that in the name of PR we should be more tolerant of the former and water down our yidishkeit. There is nothing wrong with protesting (peacefully) against the shame parade because that movement is definitely anti-torah. If some people don’t like us because of that, so be it. When it comes to isssues like that which are clearly anti-halacha it takeh is my way or the highway. We cannot compromise in order to be popular.
However when it comes to our dealings with individuals who follow such paths, I agree with you 100% that we must be accepting and tolerant – not of their behaviour – but of them as people, as remaining our brothers and sisters regardless of their actions, and I believe most yidden are.
You said yourself that baalei tshuva are enticed by our tolerance. And note that the protests against the parade were just that – they were protests against flaunting an anti-torah lifestyle in the heart of yerushalayim, not protests against those individuals who caved into their yetzer horah on this issue. To those people we can only offer chizuk that they should be able to overcome.
And again, if anyone was violent during those protests, they were a small number of individuals, not representatives of all of us.
You mention the silence of the gedolei yisroel. About which issue? The violence at the demonstrations? The badatz did speak out against it. Who else should have spoken up? I’m not sure what you are getting at there.
In the end I would agree with Moe that you seem to have a negative opinion of us chareidim, and that seems to cause you to see all our warts more clearly than you see our good. I hope you’ll be able to see all the positive and become proud to be a chareidi.
torahis1, Apparently you subscribe to the theory that making community-wide attacks is okay, but that no one then may respond personally to such inflammatory language.
GOM, 1. there is no reason under the sun to believe the “head of hizballa.” If he said it is daytime, I would still double-check to see if the sun is out. 2. If there was no Israel, no Israelis would be kidnapped. The problem is the zionists established a state in contravention to Torah law. For that stems all its (and our) problems. 3. Your pathetic comparison to Al Queda, is just that. 4. They should not have spilled the lives of 150 Jews in ostensible retaliation for the kidnappings. 1 Jewish life are far more valuable than 1,000 Arab lives. What was accomplished I ask?
Thank you Lucy, err midwesterner.
Chery,
I was going to let it pass, but I feel I must address your comment equating bitterness with thoughtlessness.
The Rambam views bitterness appropriate in its right time. It is a sign of a healthy soul. The Rambam writes in Hilchos Dayos – Second perek, that one of the signs of sickness of the body is tasting that which is sweet as bitter and that which is bitter as sweet. So too, the Rambam explains, are those people with sickness of the soul.
וְכֵן יְשַׁעְיָהוּ אוֹמֵר בָּאֲנָשִׁים הַלָּלוּ, “הוֹי הָאֹמְרִים לָרָע טוֹב, וְלַטּוֹב רָע: שָׂמִים חֹשֶׁךְ לְאוֹר וְאוֹר לְחֹשֶׁךְ, שָׂמִים מַר לְמָתֹק וּמָתֹק לְמָר” (ישעיהו ה,כ).
When one comes across something as bitter as the distasteful comments and views being espoused here, it is a sign of disease of the soul not to feel the bitterness. But such is our golus, that many find “Mar Mosuk, Oomosuk Mar”.
While your flippant remarks about bitterness may make for a good “soundbite”, they do not add to the conversation, nor do they answer the very valid questions raised about your viewpoints. Questions that you choose to ignore.
Also Ruth uses the term “Mar”/”Bitter” to refer to herself in the first perek of the megilah. The Novi Yeshaya’ in Perek 33, refers to the Malachei Shalom – saying that “Mar Yivkoyoon” with bitterness will cry. I guess even the angels are guilty of thoughtlessness in your value system. There are of course other references – both from David Hamelech Chizkiyahu and Talmud Bavli – but I think I have made my point that bitterness in Torah True Judaism is not normally associated with thoughtlessness.
GOM
torahis1, Apparently you subscribe to the theory that making community-wide attacks is okay, but that no one then may respond personally to such inflammatory language.
GOM, 1. there is no reason under the sun to believe the “head of hizballa.” If he said it is daytime, I would still double-check to see if the sun is out. 2. If there was no Israel, no Israelis would be kidnapped. The problem is the zionists established a state in contravention to Torah law. For that stems all its (and our) problems. 3. Your pathetic comparison to Al Queda, is just that. 4. They should not have spilled the lives of 150 Jews in ostensible retaliation for the kidnappings. 1 Jewish life is far more valuable than 1,000 Arab lives. What was accomplished I ask?
Chery,
No Israel – there would be no Israelis kidnapped. I have to agree. And if there would be no jews (r”l) no jews would be attacked. But JEWS were kidnapped. Do you mean to say that if there were no state of israel no jews would be kidnapped or attacked?!? If I recall correctly, the Crusades and Hitler predated the State of Israel.
GOM
GOM: If the kofrim and Torah rebels had not established the zionist entity, none of this would have happened.
And please don’t waste our time with examples of Arab violence on Jews prior to the establishment of Israel. Look at it prior to the zionist threat to Arabs, circa ~ 1890’s. And yes there was violence before that, but nothing close to a drop in a bucket like now.
Our relationship with the Arabs was much better than that with the Christians, prior to the 1890’s (and the establishment of political zionism.)
The establishment of the state was in contravention to Torah law. What would happen afterwards, should the state be established, was predicted long-ago when the zionists were still angling for their state, by our Torah leaders. Their eerily accurate predictions have unfortunately been born out. This is one such example.
chery
The comment regarding Rav Waldenberg zt”l causes me to believe that you never read, studied or picked up his sefer on Eretz Yisroel.
Zionism=evil
agreed
Burning garbage cans and throwing stones=evil
agree or diagree ?
Being silent about frum Jews acting badly=evil
agree or disagree ?
These are the questions
lets not get off topic
Moshe, your knee-jerk support of zionism is clear. Nevertheless, all the Torah in Eretz Yisroel is despite of (and predates) the zionists. I gave you Rambams definition. If you don’t like it, take it up with Rambam. (As far as the status, I stated that is my opinion. You apparently believe your misguided notions are facts themselves.)
My basic point is that just because people don’t hold of or are against Zionism doesn’t LOGICALLY
mean they should be soft on crime.
AND there is NOTHING that can be done about zionism BUT there is something we can do about thugary amongst us.
the twisted logic that “this wouldn’t happen if the zionists didn’t create the medina” is crazy.
Thats like black people say we wouldn’t burn down Newark or riot in L.A. if the white man didn’t enslave us or oppress us.
Get over it and start taking responsibility for your own actions.
don’t blame white people for riots
and dont blame zionist for burning garbage cans.
Nothing will change unless we plead for the Gedolim to come out and make a macha against violent Hafgana’s.
Until then rock throwing will r’l be the ben hazmanim “action” for those with time on their hands
Moshe, Like normal, you are completely off-base. I directly quoted Rambam’s 3 reasons. As I stated, take your problem up with Rambam. You seem to have issues with all the great Jewish thinkers of yore.
Please provide your next response skirting the issue with some ad hominem comment. I will not feel compelled to respond.
Joseph, don’t waste your time with MF. He has a problem will all chareidim, the great chachumim as well as the average Joe.
He is the type that feels he must get in his last (bad) word edge-wise. Do him a mitzvah, make him feel good and save yourself the time and trouble. Your wise time is worth a lot more than his.
As much as it is a mitzvah being mekarev someone, I strongly feel he is a “lost cause.” (Maybe someday he will come home on his own.)
MFox, Like your zionist buddy Kastner who sold Hungarian Jewry’s blood down the Danube river for the medinah and a train load of his zionist buddies and family (as well as a few others thrown in–including miraculously [no thanks to that rasha m’rusha Kastner] the Satmarer–for good measure to obscure it was mainly his zionist buddies), you are blinded to the truth and harbor hatred towards Torah men.
I have no doubt you too would have participated in the zionist sabatoging of the rescue of Hungarian Jewry with your zionist friends, when they stopped the trucks for lives deal to save much of Europe’s last surviving Jews.
How long, we are betting, it will take MF to come back with his “last (bad) word”, as he always must do (to stick it to some chareidi in the face with his zionist snake stick)?
2 minutes?
30?
an hour?
I shouldn’t forget to mention the zionists were in cahoots with Adolph Eichmann in their endeavor of establishing a medinah on top of, and at the cost of, European Jewry’s blood.
Moe,
Lets be thankful for every life saved.
Calling kASTENR A ‘rosho merusho’ is outrageous!
Wow, Guys. In post 97 I asked for a little help with my spiritual growth within the framework of Orthodox Judaism, and you all were so busy attacking each other, no one had time to advise me. I’d hate to think “the yeshiva world” isn’t the place to go to learn. Oh well, good Shabbos, I guess.
Please do not bring up cahoots.
It reminds us of certain “people” who recieved more than just handshakes from yasir arafat ym’sh.
Makes me wonder if the off-shoot of NK came home with anything more than just photo-ops.
Again Zionism is against the Torah.
So is throwing rocks and hurting innocent bystanders.
I still do not understand the connection between ant-Zionism and violence.
I am anti-zionist but I am in favor of garbage cans>
toahis1, Perhaps you should suggest to YW Editor that only your hate-mail should be allowed to be posted.
It is reassuring that YW filters out at least to some extent your trash talk of heilige Yidden.
nameless, that characterization is correct. That individual is the cause of many Jewish deaths. There is no less fitting title for him.
I think this is the Record for an amount of posts…
NoName: Moe responded in 101
Torahis1,
I think that I spoke like a mentch in response to you and yet you haven’t answered me. Does that mean you agree with what I said?
As an aside, I have a question for the bean counters — Has the number of comments on this story broken the previous record yet?
Apologies to Moe; he most certainly did. Thanks for pointing it out, Midwesterner.
torahis1, Every action by someone who self-identifies as a ‘chareidi’ does not reflect upon chareidi socierty. When you make general attacks upon all of chareidi society do not be surprised by the strong response.
Each bad apple that comes to the surface encourages more.
By not having an anti-violence Hafgana we are giving strength to the other side.
We must stop sweeping this under the rug.
torahis1,
I didn’t say that all is good. I said the chesed of chareidim clearly overshadows the evil, not the other way around as you said. Yes, there are bad apples and yes we should protest their actions loud and clear. But unless one has an agenda to highlight all the evil among us that tbey can find, and you seem to have such an agenda, these violent people are clearly just bad apples – not representatives of all chareidim.
You mention 3 attacks on buses. Such attacks (if they truly occurred) are clearly very wrong and despicable, but in that time period how many chareidim got on buses and performed chesed on the bus. Gave up there seat to someone elderly or ill, helped someone shlep their luggage etc. I know you wouldn’t notice those things because it doesn’t fit your agenda, but I’m sure it happened many many more than 3 times.