Reply To: ???? ???

ZeesKite –

I agree with hello99, it is not a problem.

hello99 –

The Aruch Hashulchan doesn’t mean that the ?????? occur ???, he means that the ???? ???? has to be ???, otherwise the ????? will happen right after! That’s how I understood it anyway. The whole diyyuk of the Chamudei Daniel is that since Rashi says ???? ???? ??? it must be that there’s a moment where there are no ?????? yet. And on that the Aruch Hashulchan says ???? ??? ??.

As for your shtickel:

1) I agree.

2) See 4.

3) I suggest it is what to presume when we didn’t see the temperature at the time.

That is very similar to what I am saying. I agree, and I like how you are explaining it.

4) It is hard for me to digest that there is something called a din bishul. Bishul is a metzius that isn’t just ?????? and ?????? but a chemical change in the makeup of the item. Chazal said that the metzius is bishul doesn’t happen in less than a k’li rishon.

To answer your quesion therefore, the Chavos Da’as and the P’ri Megadim might hold that the red hot plate is mevashel because they hold it never loses its status of k’li rishon (IIRC the Chavos Da’as says this by the Rema that says keilim are also subject to ???? ???). A k’li sheini, though it can be ????? if we lema’aseh see it heated up the other item, it can never be mevashel.