The Committee for Legislation voted on Sunday in favor of a bill that would prevent ‘Toeva groups’ from holding filth parades in Yerushalayim Ir Hakodesh. The draft bill will be put up for a vote in the Knesset on Wednesday and if approved will effectively render next month’s shame parade in the capital illegal. The law would allow the City Council to stop parades it deems a danger to public security or harmful to the feelings of the religious public, Shas Minister Eli Yishai said. Justice Minister Daniel Friedmann said he would lobby MKs to reject the bill.
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41 Responses
When will they stop!!! Ribono shel Olam!
Right on! These parades are not about trying to beat a stigma but rather a political statement. Tell them that politics doesn’t help anybody especially a group that promotes itself as being oppressed and a minority that deserves rights.
If these vile creatures and their political mentors in the Knesset insist on having their parade in Jerusalem, how about East Jerusalem. This would give the Palastinians an opportunity to show the world how “tolerent” they are!
Does it stand a chance of passing?
Civil protest. Block the streets.
I like the “East Jerusalem” idea, and I agree it would be undemocratic to stop the parade because it is against our religion – unless one argues that any parade has to be, within reason, acceptable to all.
Take the Irish pride parade in NY. The Irish have much to be proud of in their accomplishments in this country, and their yearly expression of their pride and gratefulness insults no one.
A Toevah parade, on the other hand, insults many, and is particularly inappropriate for impressionable children, to expose them to adult subject matters.
A theoretical question –
Had the first parade taken place without any protest whatsoever from the Charedi public, most, or at least many, Charedim would have never known about the parade. Now the whole thing became a huge mess, with every nine year old kid in Y-M either asking or wondering what the parade is all about.
Maybe sometimes we ought to follow the words of Chazal that shtikah is sometimes best.
Please don’t tell me about Daas Torah on this issue. As far as I know all letters from Gedolim in E”Y on this issue were written AFTER the parade became an issue for the Frum public – this caused by people who do not care much about kavod Shomayim. Had that never happened they too may have said nothing.
Who knows – What kind of chutzpah is it for you to say ”Don’t tell me about Daas Torah”, because ”as far as you know…” You know wrong. Don’t dismiss Daas Torah on your very faulty self-described assumptions.
Ridiculous, every 9 year old that breathes air knows and knew what was going on. Let us teach preventive Yiddishkeit not restrictive Yiddishkeit.
This is a shameful problem due to a Justice system of “you’re OK, I’m OK”
illini07,
Would it be democratically acceptable to allow a neo-nazi yms”v parade, with their swastikas etc, thru the streets of Yerushalayim, including past Yad Vashem?! I don’t think a single Israeli Jew would fathom allowing such a thing! There’s probably even some Israeli law against such thing, however undemocratic such a law might be.
And why would such a thing never be allowed? Because it is so repulsive and offensive to so many Jews in Israel.
Democracy also demands preserving the rights of the majority, not only the rights of the minority.
On these grounds, toeiva parades should be outlawed in Yerushalayim (if not the entire country). Such filth in public is offensive to enough Israeli citizens (of all religions) to outlaw it, democracy notwithstanding.
It is telling, but nevertheless sad, how some oiver-chochomim commentators here know better than Daas Torah, who have made their position very clear on this issue.
Illini07
Your position is at best vacuous!
If I were to take your argument to its logical conclusion, then holocaust denial should be decriminalized. for what right do we have to police the opinions of others?. would you be as tolerent of those that would like to “Proudly march “to show off their particular perversion of say,co-habiting with animals? I think not. How about an anti-muslim rally? You and I both know that those preaching tolerence , would never contanence an “Anti Mohammed” Parade and rightfuly so. Because even in a democracy, your right to free speech and expression, is abbrogated when you decide to offend a significant segment of the population. And to offend is at the top of their agenda! How else do you explain their insistance on holding this Parade in Jerusalem, where viewer turnout would pale in comparison to a secular venue ,say, Tel Aviv. Over the years, their modus operendei(did I spell that right?)is to be”in your face”, to brow beat decent,peacful, and otherwise tolerent people into submission. Someone, somewhere, has to stand up to their bullying tactics.
Torah precedes democracy.
illini07
I see you take umberage at my use of the term vile. I’m curious to know what adjective you would use to describe members of NAMBLA and similar groups that promote and encourage pedophelia. These groups are proud sponsers of, and are invited to be represented in this parade. Generosity of spirit is what prompts me to stop at vile!!!
illini07:
You are turning democracy into a religion, by making free speech into yehareg v’al ya’avor. (In a similar vein, the left wing, environmentalists, feminism, and other such “movements” have all turned into religions.)
I doubt even the founding fathers (of the US) had unconditional free speech in mind when they framed the constitution.
The parade in Yerushalayim Ihr Hakodesh is in the same free speech context of “yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theater”. Both will result in compromise to public safety (in the latter case, on many levels); and public safety trumps free speech.
“Who Knows”
“Had the first parade taken place without any protest whatsoever from the Charedi public, most, or at least many, Charedim would have never known about the parade.”
Wrong assumption! Two years ago, these menuvalim paraded in the “center” of Yerushalayim Ir Hakodesh where chareidim pass daily and that was the reason for the major protest last. You should have seen how they dressed. Hashem Yishmor!
These people (if you want to call them that) are nothing but G-dless filth! This parade is simply a war AGAINST G-D and HIS law abiding citizens.
If the current political situation in the Holy Land is indeed the beginning of the final Redemption, then it would be worthwhile to note that when we will indeed merit Moshiach Tzidkeinu we will not be having a democracy.
If however it is not so, then what right do these people have to our land? Obviously the fact that they are Jewish. How dare one come and publicly sanction an act that G-d has specifically indoctrinated as un-Jewish?
illini, Again, democracy is not a Torah concept. Dovid Hamelech did not seek a vote prior to instituting his regulations.
‘Kol haroeh sotah bekilkulah yazir atzmo min hayayin’ means that even the greatest amongst us are vulnerable to toeiva when exposed.
illini07
we all know the yelling FIRE in crowded places issue – b/c there is a public safety issue, we cannot allow the minority the right to yell FIRE just b/c they live in a democracy and have free speech. there are limits. people can get hurt really, really badly – perhaps even killed. based on your posts here and in other threads (and no, I am not going to go back to prove my point – many readers and posters here know your leanings already), you do not believe in limits in a democracy. calling a society a democracy or anyother title, does not allow a Yid to sit back and sanction open attacks against the Torah.
What is the purpose of the parade? I can tell you. It is not to show pride! It is to encourage others to go against the precepts of Torah and to join them. they want the young people to join in with them and to throw away the Torah Chas v’Shalom. they are looking to STEAL the neshomas of our precious children HaShem y’Rachem (spelling). these vile ones are in essence shouting FIRE where everyone knows that the results could be disasterous!
IM(not so)HO, there are 2 sides to the issue, with or against – you can not be against, but support the issue. it might work in some political issues (I am against the President on issue “X” but I support him as President), but it doesn’t fly here. It’s saying I am against not follwing the Torah, but I support those who don’t follow the Torah. nonsensical. make a decision as to which side you want to be on, the side of Torah or the side of anti-Torah. and if you still believe that they have the right to march for democracy is on there side, then choose which is more valuable to you democracy or Torah. the here and now “see how tolorant I am” or the from this moment foward eternal badge of standing for Torah
Jos Israel government is functioning bdereck hateva – as the way of the world, setting the infrastructure (Mashiach ben Yosef) for Masiach ben Dovid, that could include socialism, communism, fascism, democracy, or the way of the Brits. We are all aware that democracy is not a Torah concept, and all aware that the state of Israel is not run according to the Torah.
SO BE, What do we do to prevent this shame in our holiest city?
stan: you ban these perverts, that what.
I bring your attention to the Or Hachaim Hakadosh in the end of parshas Kodoshim. He asks why does the Torah repeat The land shall not vomit you out (ולא תקיא אתכם הארץ), when it already says the same thing in the end of Achrei Mos (ולא תקיא הארץ אתכם)? He answers that the land will not only spit out the Frei, but it will also spit out the frum (אל דלא מוחה כדבעי) because they did not protest properly. All the “concessions” that Israel has made was not Israel giving back land, it was the land spitting them out. The misnachlim of Gush Katif were moser nefesh for yishuv ha’aretz. Why this mitzvah in particular thrown back in their face? Because when it came time to protest the desecration of graves on Kvish 6 the misnachlim looked the other way and said it was not their problem. They left it for the kanaim. What happened to the cemetery in Gush Katif (for the first time in Jewish history)? Perhaps it should have been their problem.
קטע מדברי כ”ק אדמו”ר מדינגא פסח תשס”ו
At the very least the words of the Or Hachaim Hakadosh are food for thought.
right when are the riots i am coming over
illini – it isn’t a matter of ‘recruitment.’ These despicale perverts engage in an abominable behavior by choice. The Torah doesn’t prohibit the impossible. If the Torah prohibits something, it is a given that it can be avoided.
Joseph,
Whether its orientation or choice has never been determined! Its abnormal conduct so why would anyone engage in it unless its their nature? Its interesting though that the Torah does not prohibit this perversion with women,,,,,
nameless,
As I stated previously, and it is worthwhile repeating: If the Torah prohibited something, it is possible for every person to refrain from engaging in the prohibited activity. Otherwise the Torah would not have prohibited something people cannot disengage from. It is as simple as that.
Secondly, this hogwash about orientation is the creation of this perverted lobby. The only reason you are repeating this nonsense is because you have bought into this media-driven science that they harangue society with constantly.
And as far as your question, why would they engage in it unless it is their nature, people engage in anti-societal behaviors that we can all agree are wrong: murder, theft, etc. People engaging in something is no proof that their engagement in it is involuntary. It is not a murderers “nature” to murder, it is not a thief’s “nature” to steal, and it is not a perverts “nature” to engage in their perversion.
If a group of people who sanction stealing would make aparade for their cause,would that also be permitted? anything that is hateful to others should not be publicly displayed,just to annoy those who follow a set value system.
Next they will R.L. paradev in honor of avoda zoro,chillul Shabbos and murder. Will that be OK? Where are the Chashmonoyim of today??
Jos,
An individual’s emotional behaviour normally stems from NATURE and NURTURE. We all have a yetzer hora once in a while. But the fact that NOT EVERYONE steals, murders and commits other sinful acts when they have an urge , is a proof that it goes against their nature.
I once heard a
..Rav say that the yetzer hora keeps on coming back to taunt us again and again. Being able to push him away is because there is something engrained in us which totally goes against what he wants us to do. If one cant succeed in accomplishing that, then there is defintily some natural behavioural issue which is a hinderence.
If everything the Torah prohibits would be easy, Moshiach would have been here a long time ago!
You still didnt answer my question as to why this sin only applies to men?
If its just a question of choice why should any abnormal twisted conduct be allowed?
nameless,
I never initiated any commandment in the Torah was meant to be ”easy.” To the contrary, one must work to fulfil it. (Some people even find it hard to refrain from theft.) If NOT EVERYONE doing something when having an urge (your emphasis) proves it does not go against their nature, the same applies to this perversion. NOT EVERYONE engages in it when having the urge. Many refrain.
As far as your question regarding women, my educated guess would be because there is no real maaseh.
Jos,
Yetzer hora to steal or do anything that might bring you material or emotional satisfaction is NOT the same as indulging in perverse conduct. Nobody ‘refrains’ from perversities. THOSE who dont indulge in this behaviour, dont do it because it doesnt appeal to them. I can guarantee you that if the Yetzer Hora tries to pursuade an individual who is naturally repulsed by this act, he (the yetzer hora) will never succeed!
nameless,
You are making faulty assumptions. There are many people with the the taaveh to engage in this sickness (and it was classified as a mental sickness untill political pressue was applied to the APA), but REFRAIN from it.
Secondly yes, it is the same Yetzer Hora who tempts you to the material pleasure of stealing, that tempts you to the physical pleasure of this perversity.
Well, I guesse we just have adifference of opinion Joseph! I deplore anything which is repulsive to most and cant imagine ever being able to succumb to it, However I do have an urge once in a while to waltz into an art Gallery and walk away with a priceless ‘picasso’!
But to each his own! Feel free to have the last word here,,,,,
nameless – I am sure you are jesting about stealing a piece of artwork however, your comment proved the point that Joseph was making. Stealing is repulsive. The Torah tells us that we can not steal. You surpress your urge to take what is not yours – these deviant people need to surpress their desire to do what is wrong also!
nameless, why do you “deplore anything which is repulsive to most”? Most people are repulsed by a 80 percent of body burn victim. That is because of the valuses non-Jewish society instills.
Anyhow, you think there are no people tempted by this perversion who do not succumb to it? Then I say, take your head of the sand.
nameless: you wrote “You still didnt answer my question as to why this sin only applies to men?
If its just a question of choice why should any abnormal twisted conduct be allowed?”
the Gemara in Sanhedrin discusses this. there is a mishnah on the bottom of daf nun-dalet (page 54a). there is additional discussion on daf nun-ches (58b).
these sources will answer your questions. The Artscroll commentary explains it nicely.
Moe,
When I say I deplore whats is repulsive to most, I am referring to the subject we are discussing in this blog!
As far as your second point, please reread my post.I said that those, who by nature think this act to be disgusting WILL NOT BE TEMPTED in any case.
MDLEVINE:
It says ‘lo signov’. But does the Torah eloborate on stealing being an abomination as it does with the subject we are discussing?
I might have the YH to steal the artwork but obviously I can conquer that. Whereas in the other case, there is no YH at all
nameless, I read your post quite carefully. And I commented on what you in fact said.
You clearly said in several of your above posts that if someone has a taaveh for this perversity, they can not refrain from it. For example, you state above:
Nobody ‘refrains’ from perversities.
And I tell you are as wrong as white is not black. There are many people who are tempted to engage in this abominable behaviour that do refrain from engaging in it.
I was talking about people who have NO yetzer hora to this whatsoever. THEY are the ones who refrain very easily!
nameless said
“I might have the YH to steal the artwork but obviously I can conquer that. Whereas in the other case, there is no YH at all”
why do you say that the Y’H does exost for the abomination? there are those that are tested with this AND they pass!
…as was posted earlier on the board by Joseph, if the Torah requires something of us, it is not impossible to do. the requirement can either be active or doing something or refraining from doing other things.