Reply To: Debate via Email with Rabbi A. Kraus of Neturei Karta

The Final Post: This is the final letter between myself and Rabbi A Krauss of Neturei Karta. I apologize for the lateness of this post. I had originally posted it in a new thread and it was erased, I did not realize I needed to post it here.

Yosef

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Letter 3: Me

The Rav is correct that the main issue is the the “oaths”. Therefore I would like to bring down major poskim who hold the Mitzvah of Yishuv/Kibbush Haaretz to be from generation to generation. In addition I will also through the words of our sages continue to show that our current unfolding redemption can and should be compared to the return under Ezra and Nechemya.

First the Ramban is very clear in his language. “We are commanded to posses the land that the almighty God gave to our forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and not to leave it in the hands of other nations or in desolation, as it says, ‘posses the land and live in it…Do not be confused and say that this mitzvah is the mitzvah to make war against the seven nations…this is not the case. We are commanded to kill those nations if they fight us, if they want to make peace with us we may do so and leave them in certain well known circumstances; but we may never leave the land in their hands nor in the hand of other nations in any generation. It is very clear that the Ramban held that the mitzvah of national Jewish existence in Israel (Kibbush Haaretz) applied at all times in all generations. It is very clear that the Ramban did not hold of the shvuot.

Now that we have established that the Ramban and for near certain the Rambam held of Yishuv and Kibbush, we must contend with the possibility that we do not hold like them. What if the shvuot are and were in effect when the Zionists initiated the ingathering of exiles, the wars and the State. How would these shvuot be annulled? Do we need Mashiach himself to come and annul them?

I would to argue that yes, Mashiach himself is not needed to annul these oaths (if in fact they were in effect). I would like to bring numerous sources, the words of our great sages that cannot be denied, that testify to this. It cannot be denied that the position of the rabbanim who support Medinat Yisrael, has strong basis.

Tosfot Yom Tov, Ma’aser Sheini 5:2 who cites the Yerushalmi:

“Our sages decreed not to bring the fruits (kerem rivai) so as not to adorn the marketplace of Yerushalayim, which is in the hands of our enemies. This is true even if the Beit Hamikdash will be rebuilt… for the Beit Hamikdash will be rebuilt before the establishment of the re-establishment of the Malchit Beit david, as the Yerushalmi affirms… Thus our enemies will have some control over us before the re-establishment of the Malchut Beit David, just like the beginning of the second Mikdash.”

[From this I see that my idea that I wrote to you in my original letter was correct, comparing the return of Ezra and Nechemya to the return lead by the Zionist, our great sages even state this. Notice he mentions “some control” not total control, this is very much the situation today, Baruch Hashem.

The Shelah in Shnei Luchot HaBrit, Beit David, vol 1 p. 18a and the Ramban, Shir Hashirim 8:13

“The beginning of the future redemption will occur with the permission of the kings (United Nations). Some of the exiles will gather in Eretz Yisrael (Led by the Zionists), and afterwards, Hashem will extend His hand again (to gather the rest). The verse, therefore says, “Then the Lord your G-d will bring back your captivity”(devarim 30:3) and afterwards, “He will return and gather you from the nations”(ibid).

The Radak, Tehilim 146:3

“Salvation is solely in the hands of Hashem, and He brings it about through mortals, as He did through Cyrus during the Babylonian exile. In the future as well, Hashem will bring Israel’s redemption through gentile kings, by inspiring them (UN partition) to set the Jews free.”

Rabbeinu Bachya, Vayikra 11:4-7

“Why is this nation (edom) called “Chazir”? For, it will eventually “lhachzir” the crown to its former glory. This means as follow. The two Temples were built by Jews… The third Temple, however will be built by Edom.. since they destroyed.. In the future, they and all the other powers (UN, EU…) will come to assist and support Israel, for peace will abound”.

Also in the Pesikta, Piska Kumi Ori:

“Our Rabbis taught: When the Messianic King appears, he will stand upon the roof of the Beit Hamikdash and proclaim to Israel, Humble ones, the time for redemption has arrived.”

The Abarbanel in Mashmia Yeshua p 25 and on Tehillim 147:2

“It is possible that the redemption will occur when the Kings decide that the Holy Land should return to the People of Israel. He who desires to go up to Eretz Yisrael will do so, like the Jews did after the Babylonian exile. Afterwards when the holy city of Yerushalayim is rebuilt, all the Jews will ascend together”

Maharivach, intro to Ein yaakov:

“Hashem will inspire Kings to recognize truth”

All these sources indicate that we will return to the Eretz Yisrael on a national level before Mashiach, it is this natural process that itself annuls the “oaths” (even if they are halachik in nature). It cannot be as you stated, like the story about the Rav who wanted to blow the Shofar at the Kotel. Even if the oaths had halachic ramifications, there were rules tied with it, all mikoros that I have brought down so far delineate those rules, meaning how the final geulah will come about. So at this point I will continue to maintain that the ingathering, wars and Medinat Yisrael in general are all proper as stated through the words of our sages.

Shabbat Shalom,

Yosef Rabin

Letter 3: Rabbi Kraus

Dear Mr. Rabin,

You make the error of thinking that the Ramban means that the mitzvah during exile is the same obligation as during the time of the Beis Hamikdash: to conquer the land and drive out its inhabitants. But this is incorrect – this would be forbidden by the oaths. Rather, he means that if an individual Jew lives in the land, he fulfills a mitzvah. This is apparent from the Ramban’s choice of words: “If so, it is a positive commandment for all generations, in which every one of us is obligated, even during the exile.”

This is explained by the Rashbash (Responsa, #2): “There is no doubt that living in Eretz Yisroel is a great mitzvah at all times, both during and after the time of the Temple, and my grandfather the Ramban counted it as one of the mitzvos, as it says, ‘You shall take possession of it and live in it,’ and so is the opinion of my father the Rashbatz in his work Zohar Harakia. And even according to the Rambam who did not count it as a mitzvah, it is at least a Rabbinic mitzvah, besides the many other benefits of living there. However, during exile this is not a general mitzvah for all Jews, but on the contrary it is forbidden, as the Gemora says in the last chapter of Kesubos, that this is one of the oaths that the Holy One, blessed is He, made the Jews swear: that they not hurry the end and not go up as a wall. Go and see what happened to the children of Ephraim when they hurried the end! However, it is a mitzvah for any individual to go up and live there, but if there are considerations that prevent him he is not obligated.”

The Radak on Tehillim is also based on this verse in Yishaya 66. The Radak himself on Yishaya explains that the nations bringing up the Jews will take place after the war of Gog and Magog, which is after moshiach comes.

Thank you for bringing up these points and we appreciate your willingness to discuss the topic. If you have any further points to make you can write to [email protected].

Sincerely

Rabbi A Kraus