mybat…”parents should allow it as long as it will lead to marriage”…the second i read that line i right away thought of What will Rabbi Walerstein say about this??!!for those who don’t know, Rabbi Walerstein has been involved in Kiruv rechokim and kerovim for over 10 years, he has more experience than, I dare say, many of us on CR!
In a recent Shiur discussing boys and girls hanging out without supervision, he described how many girls and boys that he personally knows who came from good homes and are now not shomer negia, who are not following hilchos yichud, all because they feel like they “loooove” the other person and they will “for sure” marry that girl/boy one day!
though I cannot remember the exact numbers…but he said that out of 30 weddings where he was mesader kidushin, i think it was 27 of them where the couple were not shomer negia, and out of 27, only ONE COUPLE were not shomer with eachother. meaning, that the other couples had many girlfriends and boyfriends whom they have not been shomer with AND they did not marry those pp…they married other pp….so that rationalization that “it will lead to marriage” doesn’t stand.
Now I know I specifically discuss shomer negia and not the general subject of “fun get togethers” because just like Rabbi Walerstein, I can see as well that when boys and girls hang, they let their guards down and it can invitably reach not being shomer negia or being careful with hilchos yichud! This is coming from a Rabbi whose been there for these children, and can tell you how boys would go up to girls and ask rides to go “daven mincha”…just to manipulate the girls to let them into the car…or boy telling girl that tis okay not to be shomer negia cuz he heard a “rov” say that if you wear gloves its okay…bottom line, their yetzer hara is strong and they’ll do anything to satisfy taavos…lets not encourage that!
and if we’r talking about girls/boys hanging together for many years in hopes that it will lead to marriage, well i can think of at least 3 pp just off hand who dated their boyfriend for 3 YEARS…and relationship broke off! i asked one of them what lesson she took from whole experience and she said ” there’s no reason why we were hanging out in high school…waste of time, we were young, it was fun, though was clean, but when we got older and life started hitting us and we realized what getting married means, then we started having problems and realizing we’r not even suitable as a husband and wife”…..so ya, what was the point of being friends for 3years?!
and looking back to highschool( really only a few years ago) I can say that of the girls who had boyfriends….NONE of them dated them seriously at marriagable age, none of them got married to them….all it did was give many girls and boys heartache!!
now oomis1105, your gona blame the chinuch system, shidduch system, parents, mothers, bubbes, zeidies, neighbors, yentas….and you may be right…but u paint a very unrealistic world where everything needs to be readjusted and changed inorder to make these “get togethers” a kosher possiblity!!
u write “That may be true in an environment such as today when they feel like kids let loose in a candy store when they are around other genders”. well thats what im addressing, from a realistic point of view that in today’s world ( not last generation, not generation of the bais hamikdash….but today) this is the case and to say that a very realistic possible solution is to encourage “fun get togethers” is turning blindly to what you urself see as happening.
Now, if Chazal themselves quote how the yetzer Hara is soo strong, and I had rabbanim as seminary teachers telling us “girls u dont’ understand, a boys’ Yetzer Hara is incredible when they see a girl”….then it isn’t my humble opinion about boys at young age not having the self discipline…they are not physically, mentally, emotionally ready at a high school age!! u can teach them, coach them and refine them, but maturity comes with age and life experience, not necessarily by learning social protocols.
Also, I feel like I have to say this as well…oomis you also paint a world where girls and boys are soooo oblivious about eachother…but many boys and girls have siblings in opposite gender, they have boy cousins and relatives whom they bump into family chanuka parties and family simchas…pp are not as naive as you make them!
I myself attended chanuka parties where I had chassidishe boy cousins show up and espeically because it was a “supervised” party where e/body’s parents and grandparents were present that e/o felt comforable interacting with eachother. and yes, my boy cousins would make conversation with me as well…very normal, pleasant, non intrusive conversations! so if anything i would encourage supervision during such get together!
As someone who has brothers and boy cousins, I never felt like I didnt “get” how boys think or not think…and if there was s/t i was unclear about, my date would explain to me. I never pictured my dates showing up in white horses and who knows what, or expect them to read off shas for me before we begin talking…
I never had an issue speaking to a boy on a date because we had common things to discuss like “eretz yisroel, yeshiva, seminary, goals in life, hobbies ect” unlike in high school, ALL that girls discussed with boys was MOVIES and Goyshe music, I have never heard a girl say she discussed Shwekey with a boy!!
and I do not personally feel like I needed any boy interaction in my high school years, if anything as I have said before, I have seen only destructive things come out of that!