75 Responses

1. This is truly a sad day for klal yisroel. I can not explain the pain we feel as Jews in the 20th century in eretz yisroel of all places, fighting to be able to educate our daughters al pi derech haTorah. May HaShem take us out of this bitter Galus soon! May the parents of emanuel be rewarded for their Mesirus Nefesh—and yes that includes the 13 sfardi families who will be in jail too alongside their shkenazi brothers and sisters.

2. how is it that i am totally on the other side of reason in this story? it seems so clear that you cannot put up a mechitzah in a “public school” to separate some students from others.

3. Let the police find the parents the 100,000 charedi Yidden. Either we accept that the Beit Mishpat has jurisdiction to tell us what to do or we don’t . If we don’t then we have no obligation to listen to their dictate to report to the Russian Compound. How do they propose finding the parents? Will they jail all 100,000 until they give them over?

4. Frummy McFrumerson said:
   > it seems so clear that you cannot put up a mechitzah in a
   > “public school”

   OK, but they were having their own school – not allowed.
   OK, so they schlepped them to a Belz school in Bnei Brak – not allowed

   And they had the chutzpah to fine them all this time!

   They don’t seem to realise that they will not win! The parents will move or emigrate!

5. Just listened to the atzeres in bnei berak. A huge kiddush hashem.

6. Frummy:

   You don’t get it.

   The parents have been willing to remove their kids from the school, and educate them elsewhere, but the state refuses to let them!!

   They even sent them to a school in Bnei Brak but the education ministry threatened to remove that schools funding unless they stopped educating the kids from Emmanuel!

   At the end of the day, everybody should have a right where to educate their kids in a gererally accepted manner and should not be dictated to by the state.

   There was a dispute about who should be mixed with who, and the “frummers”, including around 30% Sefaradim I should add, have now chosen to exclude themselves from the school.

   The issue here is not whether chareidi schools should receive state funding.

   The issue is that a family has a right to send their kids to be educated in a school which matches their lifestyle. They cannot be complelled to educate their children in a surrounding which goes against their way of life. And that is what the state are forcing them to do.

7. Overlooking the event in Yerushalayim, it doesn’t seem like the tzibur will allow these parents to ever make it to jail. Unless the Russian Compound has room for the over 100,000 people.

8. The slap in the face of the self-elected anti-Torah supreme court was LONG overdue. Today, they FINALLY got it, BARUCH HASHEM!

9. The demonstration has little to do with whether the school should be forced to accept these girls or not.
   Right now the fact of the matter is that the Israeli Government is forcefully separating 250 children from their parents for 2 weeks, this supposedly includes nursing babies etc.
   This is what the Gedolim are trying to prevent. The problems with the discrimination among schools is a real problem that has to be dealt with. But this is not the way!

10. Frummy, if you truly are frum, if all the gedolim across the spectrum including Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shtainman, the Belzer Rebbe etc. are on the side of the parents, how can you possibly be “totally on the other side of reason in this story”????!! You should be humble enough to realize that you don’t know all the facts and that the side of the gedolim is without one hairsbreath of doubt the true and correct side!! Who do you think you are?! Yes, some of the other posters offered explanations, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that YOUR opinion in YOUR mind carries any weight at all when it opposes the decision of all of our spiritual leaders. Please do some inner work and understand what this means. The doors of teshuva are opened to you, but first you must recognize the muck in which you are standing. As a Jewish sister, I wish you much hatzlacha in your challenging avoda.

11. Thousands of chareidim rallying together…for what?
    So that one group could say to the other ‘we are frumer than you’…
    What a waste of man power..what a waste of time…what a Bittul torah!

    One wonders why protests are not as vocal for the release of Gilad Shalit (true Pidyon shvuyim), or against the defemation of Israel in the wake of the flotilla raid, or during the Lebanon war.

    Could you imagine the good it would do for Klal Israel if these men used their power, passion and strength, not only to protest sound causes, but incorporate themselves into society. Instead we have these people protesting someone else’s school. a childish cause… For what??

12. “The issue here is not whether chareidi schools should receive state funding.”

    True, that clouds the issue. But, to the extent that Chinuch Atzmai schools do receive state funding, the state has a right to put its’ two cents into matters affecting the schools. This includes curriculum and other issues including perceived discrimination.

    I respect the Slonimer Rebbe, Shlit”a. But, he’s dead wrong on this. You cannot, CANNOT, run a government where a good portion of the population refuses to listen to it on religious grounds yet wants its money and protection. This is sheer anarchy.

13. i understand the argument but on a side note frum kids who are mixed with more modern kids in school never get affected adversely its always a more positive experience for both of the children, all the out of town community’s have one day school and all the kids frum modern go there and let me tell you, they are all the best kids that come out of there, the more modern end up going to yeshiva and the frum are brought up open minded and excepting of all types of jews. i much prefer that to the close minded way of, i only send my kids to the type of school that we are

14. Frummy:
    I completely agree with you! I have absolutely no idea what everyone is thinking…its a state-funded school- they get to say what they want!
    I really don’t understand any of this…

15. V’ahavta L’reicha Kamocha-means ALL Jews: Ashkenazi, Teimani, Sfardi, Ethiopian, Russian, Etc. A Yid is A Yid PERIOD. When Klal Yisroel has Achdus Hashem joins our ranks as well, and nothing can stop us. There is enough hating from the Goyim. Why can’t we all just get along and except our differences w/ love. Eilu V’Eilu Dvrei Elokim Chaim.

16. HOW COME THE ROSHIE HAYEHSIVA OF LAKEWOOD HAVE NOT ORDERED BMG TO THE STREETS FOR A MASS RALLY IN SUPPORT OF DA’AS TORAH?????????? FELLOW JEWS IN NEED?????? TEIKU?? TEIKU???

17. Rav Elyashiv himself attended this rally.

    Everyone less knowledgable in Torah than he, SHUT YOUR MOUTHS!

18. to #16: The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva have a kabala from Rav Ahron Kotler zt’l not to protest in the United States about internal affairs in Israel. I am SURE that they are on the side of the overwhelming majority of Israeli gedolim who are with the Slominer Rebbe. But they have a tradition about what is worthy of an American protest.

19. #16 …. um, because he is not in ISRAEL — that’s the country that is trying to limit parents rights to educate their children in the manner they see fit. I don’t think demonstrating in Lakewood against the Israeli government/courts/secular narishkeit is really going to be noticed by the relevant parties. Learning Torah would be best for the Klal at this moment, no?

20. these parents are not heading to a hotel…we should daven for the parents and their families that these two weeks of incarceration not linger on in their lives or cause ripple effects. They shoud be zoche to build happy healthy strong yiddish families and have only nachas and simchas. they also need money to pay their astronomical legal fees.

21. This whole thing is so stupid…
    its a state funded school the state gets to decide the level and types of education it provides..
    dont take state money and the state wont say what to do..
    regardless this is a chilul hashem and racism to the utmost degree.
    in america if in a public school the whites protested blacks everything would break lose..

22. “Rav Elyashiv himself attended this rally.
    Everyone less knowledgable in Torah than he, SHUT YOUR MOUTHS!”

    This is not a matter of Torah or p’sak halacha. This is a matter of a system where the chareidim won’t follow seclar law that they see, perhaps more than somewhat correctly, as targeting their lifestyle. But, on the flipside, the secular government is not going to let the chareidi system stand unchecked if they feel the chareidim are breaking the law.

    R’ Chaim Oizer essentially said, more than 70 years ago, that Israel is teetering on anarchy when it comes chareidim following secular law. It will only get worse.

    If you don’t want the secular state telling you what to do, don’t ask them for money. This rally is not a Kiddush HaShem, it’s a Chillul HaShem. If you think otherwise, I believe you’re mistaken.

23. This article was written by a friend, a member of the Slonimer community in Betar:

    The story with Emanuel is a long one…

    Emanuel is home to a community of Slonimers and a community of Sefardim – the majority of which are not religious.
    There is only one elementary school for girls there -the Beit Yaakov in controversy. Until this law suit came into being, the school had 2 tracks – the religious track which serviced the religious girls i.e. the Slonimers and a handfull of Sefardi girls who are religious – and the non-religious track which serviced the non-religious girls – all of them Sefardim. Both tracks were quite happy with this arrangement.

    Mr. Lelom, who receives funding from a extreme left anti-chareidi organization, has no personal interest in Emanuel, as he does not live there nor do his family members. His law suit is motivated by an agenda to vilify charedim as racists, and not at all to promote the interests of the Sefardim in Emanuel. 80% of the parents from the non-religious track signed a petition to stop the lawsuit because they are happy to keep their daughters ‘segregated’. The teaching staff for both tracks of the Beit Yaakov consisted of Slonimer mothers – those now going to jail – and so Lelom’s victory has left the ‘vicitimized’ Sefardi girls with no teachers and has done nothing to help their education.

    When this lawsuit began, the Slonimer parents consulted with the Slonimer Rebbe who advised them against mixing the tracks and bringing their daughters into contact with mixed dancing, television, treife food, etc etc. The parents sent a request to the bagatz to allow them to explain their position. This request was ignored, and until 1 1/2 months ago, all of the proceedings were based off of information provided by Mr. Lelom.
    In the meantime, they took their daughters out of school, and started ‘home schooling’ them.

    The week before Lag B’Omer, the Slonimer parents were subpoenaed to court to deal with their ‘contempt of court’ for not integrating the classes (and for not sending their daughters to a recognized school).

    In court, the parents explained that their decision to keep the classes separate was not racist – in fact there were Sefardi girls in the religious class! – it was merely a religious matter. One track preferred a sheltered religious approach to education, and the other did not.
    (One parent – a ZAKA volunteer – went further and said that racism is obviously not part of their lives – when he ‘cleans up’ after a bombing he cleans up dark skin with the same broken heart that he cleans up white skin.)

    The court was taken aback by hearing this ‘new’ information and ordered a compromise – that they create an acceptance board with members agreed to by both parties, kick all the girls out of school, re-accept them and place them in an appropriate track via this acceptance board.
    Lelom did not accept this compromise. And so the parents were again ordered to send their girls to Beit Yaakov and mix the classes.

    Despite the fines and threat of jailing, the parents adhered to the Slonimer Rebbe’s advice. They were told that the court would not oppose them if they decided to send their daughters to school outside of Emanuel. However, when they arranged for their daughters to attend a chassidish Beis Yaakov in Bnei Brak – the misrad hachinuch threatened to close the school down if they accepted the girls from Emanuel. The court would not allow the Slonimers to open a private school in Emanuel either.

    The rest of the Charedi world has joined the Slonimers in this because this case is setting a precedent for the bagatz (who’s wisdom comes from where? This country does not even have a constitution that they can claim to base their decisions on!) to coerce parents in issues regarding the education of their children. The protest today, and the parents’ willingness to go to jail, is meant to demonstrate that we chareidim intend to educate our children in the way we chose – under the guidance of our gedolim and NOT under the coercion of the bagatz. And that we chareidim are willing to make sacrifices to uphold our freedom of religion – freedom to practice Torah true Judaism in this country that calls itself Jewish.

    The judge (the only Sefardi judge on the bagatz – hmmm… sounds kind of racist….) stated clearly that he sees no reason why a Rabbi’s opinion should have any baring once he has made a ruling. And he compared this to the ‘separate but equal’ and desegragation struggles in the US 50 years ago.
    The Slonimers have stated clearly that they answer to G-d alone (not to some arrogant man who believes in judicial activism), and compared this to the sacrifice and triumph of the Chashmonaim when the Greeks tried to undermine their Judaism.

    We should be zoche to see Hashem’s name sanctified, and raise our children to give Him nachas!

    S.

24. #23 … thank you for taking the time to post. It is refreshing to read a more accurate rendition of events.

25. Incredible how strong turnout can be when chareidisher veldt deems it important. Unfortunately the levayas for the eight young, innocent kedoshim from Mercaz Harav (on a friday when many or most yeshivaleit don’t go to seder) didn’t rate

26. thank you 23 for your write up at least we can understand what exactly is going on!! hearing all this in the UK, our hearts are torn for these simple ehrlicher people who only want to be mechanech their children with yiddisher chinuch.
    אשרינו מה טוב חלקנו that Yidden in 2010 are willing to go prison for the sake of their children, this will certainly bring משיח!!

27. 25
    please dont be מקטרג against כלל ישראל!!

28. #23 So you are saying that the parents and court were willing to settle but Leleom prevented this. May he rot and may this tremendous Kiddush Hashem not count to his merit.

    #25 There is no comparison between the two events. Here a show of force is needed to fight against the high court. There, what was being fought against, what agency or government was preventing us from doing anything. And from what I recall here in America, there was a very respectable turnout. Sounds like you have an ax to grind with someone.

29. torlev says:
    “Incredible how strong turnout can be when chareidisher veldt deems it important. Unfortunately the levayas for the eight young, innocent kedoshim from Mercaz Harav (on a friday when many or most yeshivaleit don’t go to seder) didn’t rate”

    There was no need for all of Klal Yisroel to stop what they were doing an attend the funerals of those Kedoshim. However, that doesn’t mean we didn’t grieve along with everybody else. We all did our own improvments in our learning, davening or chessed, each in our own way, in the memory of the Kedoshim.

    In this instance however, private individual acts simply isn’t approriate. We had NO CHOICE but to go out there and show the strength of our feeling.

    B’ezras Hashem all will be well in the end.

30. #23: I wasn’t following this story, but you clarified it all for me. Thank you.

    As I read the end, I couldn’t help but think that our forefathers in Russia went underground to teach their children Torah. As we all know, the Communists had in their ranks many, many Yidden, some R”L from Chassidishe & Yeshivish homes.

    What’s the difference here? Only that in this case, ALL participants are Jewish. This is a very sad day for Chinuch in Eretz Yisrael. I commend the parents who are willing to go to jail for Torah…just like our ancestors did in Europe. This is terribly wrong.

31. hello my 2 cents
    this is an issue of the state having a say in our chinuch
    and as charadim are a sizeable portion of the population and the state of israel funds religios schools and we pay taxes we have a right to demand funding for scools, that we control or vuochers now wether the parents were right or wrong is irrelavent as the supreme court can not be telling us how to run or schools and that is a sakanah for klal yisral

32. i cant understandhow foolish one can be. why are you compring apples to oranges. so you want every time a tragedy occurs the whole rld shoud stop and 100,000 people should attend. besides a leveyah is short notice and this attack on chinuch hatahor inthis particular instance quite q while bedsides…besides…besides you fill in or get somebody with common sense

33. I see the support of just about all of the Gedolai Yisrael and I recognize that the issue is the independence of chinuch. But when this question came up with regard to the listening to the psak of Rabbanim and Roshei Hayeshiva with regard to the evacuation of settlements, there was absolute silence. Of course, that issue is less relevant for the Charedi world, and this issue hits home and so this issue rated a major demonstration. I understand. But what’s the goal? When this is all over, will anyone sit down and discuss the descrimination that takes place in Chinuch in Bais Yakov? Or can we expect business as usual. If one of the speakers would have said, we recognize that things are not perfect. We will review it, but the supreme court has no role in chinuch, I would feel better. But I have a heavy heart! There are thousands of people on the way to Tshuva who will walk away with the wrong message today.

34. I as an American Jew am fuming. This Israeli government should be destroyed by the religious parties pulling out of the coalition. They should of treatened BI BI that they will go with Livni if he dont pardon the parents. From now on any young israel or modern ortho shul I go to
    that displays an Israeli flag I will refuse to daven there and even if they need a tenth man for a minyan. A state that takes parents opf children and babys and seperates them for 2 weeks is a nazi state. I hope the Iranians destroy the soldiers and police for what they did to our Jewish mamas some pregnant and nursing. This weekend the first Iranian boat is due to arrive.

35. it seems that 22 women and 2 men have split and cannot be found 20:45 israel time

36. many thanks for a wonderful up to the minute coverage….kudos to wyn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

37. #25 my thoughts exactly.

38. In case anyone missed this:

    **16:54 – Ynet reports about 30 chareidim attempted to attack Rav Yaakov Yosef as he left a shiur. The Rav was not injured Baruch Hashem.

    I’ll post it again, just in case you didn’t understand it the first time.

    **16:54 – Ynet reports about 30 chareidim attempted to attack Rav Yaakov Yosef as he left a shiur. The Rav was not injured Baruch Hashem.

39. To Lawman: Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shtainman, Rav Batzri, the Belzer Rebbe, the Slonimer Rebbe and many others have decided that this IS a matter of Torah. Who are you, lowly worm that you are, to question what this is a matter of when someone the stature of Rav Elyashiv told kollel fellows and yeshiva students to leave their gamaras to protest?! Same goes to you, notintofear, Frummy, Eric55, Astonished, RamatShilo and anyone else arrogant enough to feel that he/she knows better than our gedolei hador. You call this stupid? Childish? Who do you think you are?! Realize that your puny minds do not understand the issues at hand. There is no need for you to understand; you must defer to minds greater than your own. It is a mitva d’oraisa to listen to our Torah leaders even if they tell you that what appears to you is right is actually left and vice versa. Because right and left depends on perspective and YOUR perspective is limited and not directed by pure da’as Torah. I can offer some explanations to help you understand, but I won’t because it doesn’t truly interest you because you consider your shikul daas to be above all the Torah leaders who commanded us to march in protest. Once you humble yourself and accept the authority of gedolei Torah and sincerely want to understand, there is what to talk about.

40. Dr. Avi, same goes for you. FYI, Sefardi parents who don’t want the state to mix into their children’s religious education just went to prison, including a Teimani and other eidot. It has nothing to do with achdus, discrimination or funding (parents tried homeschooling but were forbidden to do so) and everything to do with the Medina wanting to control our children’s education. Torlev, yes, that was a terrible tragedy, but the Gedolim don’t command everyone to go to levayas and normally don’t tell kollel fellows and yeshiva students to leave learning to go to protests either, but this was gzeirat shmad and that is the difference. BTW, my husband learns on Friday as well. That is not the point. Today the crowds turned out because our Torah leaders told them to. When a chareidi family, Rachel Weiss and her three children hy”d, were murdered, we were not commanded to attend and I don’t believe their levaya was bigger than the boys at Merkaz HaRav for whom we all shed bitter tears. There were plenty of black hats on that terrible black Friday Rosh Chodesh Adar. Bottom line, the chareidisher veldt deems it important to go out when their leaders all command them to do it. Otherwise, it is their own personal choice.

41. HASHEM IS MORE UNHAPPY (NO ACHDUS IN AM YISROEL TODAY) THAN HAPPY (MESIRUS NEFESH OF THE PARENTS AGAINST THE COURTS)

    REFUSING TO ASSOCIATE OR BE IN THE PRESENCE OF UR FELLOW JEW IS NOT WHAT HASHEM INTENDED. CHUMROTS IS NOT HALACHA. ACTUALLY IT IS ASSUR TO FORCE A HUMRA.

    MOSHIAH NOT COMING TODAY, HOPEFULLY TMRW.

42. I find it hard to believe any of the accounts i have heard regarding what has happened in this situation because nobody has even minimally tried to present the governments point of view in this case. It has all been the usual “one-sided” completely biased reporting I’ve become accustomed to reading on this site.

    #23 is dripping with bias. ladler has lost her mind or just cant read.

    Can anyone explain this situation with a non-biased outsiders perspective?

43. I was at the Atzeres today
    Never in my life had I been to such a kiddush shem shamayim
    and most significantly the achdus that permeated between teh sephardim and ashkenazim as they sang together chassidsh, litvish and sephardi songs arm in arm, was the biggest testimony that discrimination is not the issue here
    just by the way rav Ovadia Yosef instructed his followers to attend as well since this was a fight to show that we follow daas torah

44. #25-I think cholent-kop would be a more appropriate user name for you as you are hopelessly confused and incoherent.

45. #25/torlev: the Belzer Rebbe went to the levaya, I believe, and there were plenty of black hats at the levayos. perhaps it was another rebbe. the chassidishe and yeshivish world mourned along with everyone when the Merkaz HaRav tragedy occurred. Let’s not be so devisive!!!

46. Lawman – I agree with you except on one point. It’s tremendous Kiddush Hashem because individual parents are willing to go to jail instead of compromising their veiw of Halacha. You can’t say they are halachacally wrong, esp. with such big gedolim on their side. Even if their way is just a chumra, they have every right to live and raise their kids that way. But, what I just said applies to the individual parents, but the Klal on the whole should build their own school and not take Israeli gov. money. This is what happens when you do. The Brisker Rov Z”tl was approached in EY with this question -Can you take Israeli Gov. money for Yeshivos? He proceeded to take out a gold chain and break it in half. He said if you do, they will try to break you just like this chain! His words were obviously prophetic!

47. The yiddish world is realizing more everyday the atrocities the Zionist state is causing, such a chilul hashem was displayed today in yerushalayim and for the past few months as well!

48. not the end. about 20 people have not reported to the russian compound.the court will decide how to deal with that tommorow

49. Give 100 monkeys a typewriter and they couldn’t type up a Shakespeare play in years. Give them 10 minutes, however, and they’d be able to type up paragraphs infinitely more mature (lowly worm? Is that the best you could come up with?)than what was posted by “ladler.” Resorting to ad hominem (do you know what that means?)attacks is always a sign of insecurity.I’m quite secure in my beliefs.

    You don’t get to take goverment funding and tell the government to mind their own business. Show me that the State of Israel was not funding this school, or funding it at minimal levels even, and I’ll change my position.

    Further, since when is it a right to choose the religious element that you go to school with? I grew up out of town, and there was a non-religious element of students in my class. My children go to school with some kids whom I’d rather them not have what to do with. Guess what? I suck it up and send them there. That doesn’t mean they have to be friends outside of the classroom setting.

    How about looking at this from the perspective of a less religious person in Emmanuel? The school teaches them to be frum – do mitzvos, keep shabbos and kashrus and taharas hamishpacha – and yet nope. We don’t want your kids mixing with ours.

    This is not about Torah. This is about the wielding of political power wrapped in what purports to be Torah. You don’t want a secular government to interfere? I agree, they SHOULD NOT interfere. But, the Torah institutions in Israel SHOULD NOT accept money from the secular state.

50. Mr. Lawman, let them not take our taxes and we will not take their money ! Period. It’s the same with the insanity of paying property taxes in US and then have to pay privately for our own tuition. Just like it is not the business of Obama to tell me how to educate my children, it is not the business of Levy to tell them how to educate theirs.

51. …And so, finally, we arrive at the breaking point.

    The State has grown weary of the Hareidim. The State wants to move ahead with their goal of assimilating everyone to the pagan European secular ideals. Torah Jews are an obstacle to total assimilation. they are a threat to the secular state and they must be suppressed by force, if necessary.

    Meanwhile the “ideal” State public schools are dangerous palces of violence and thuggery, where students are exposed daily to drugs and physical violence, and where nothing of Judaism is taught.

    What a nerve, to lecture Hareidim about education, when they are abject failures!

52. Wow. What a massive Kiddush Hashem. No violence, no rioting, only thousands and thousands of people standing up for our right to learn and teach Torah. Truly amazing.

    #2,11,14,21,22,etc. – First of all, unless I am mistaken the Emanuel parents offered to send their daughters to different schools, but the High Court did not permit them to do so.

    Secondly, and more important – R’ Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Aaron Leib Shteinman, Rav Nissim Karelitz, Rav Wosner, Rav Pavorsky (Rosh Yeshiva Ponevezh), Rav Elyashiv, The Belzer Rebbe, Rav Chaim Pinchos Sheinberg, Rav Shmuel Aurbach, the Slonimer Rebbe, have not only called on everybody to go the protests, but they all went themselves. Not only did the livvish Gedolim support these rallies to support Torah, but the Toldos Aaron Rebbe, Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe, and the Bostoner Rebbe have all instructed their chassidim to attend the rallies as well. And according to the above story, the Dati Leumi community attended the rallies as well.
    Gedolim of every type and sect have all supported, if not personally attended, these rallies. And not one Gedol came out against them. So who are you to disagree with almost every single one of the Gedoli Yisroel as they lead us in standing up for the Torah of Hashem?!

    (to bold use b, to close bold use /b)

53. ChaMosh and others!” The atrocities of the Zionist State”??!! Where else you”ll find a country where a school is government-funded, and you can just disregard the government instructions? Where else you could keep all the Chareidim in kollel forever on government’s money? Beloved Yasser would put with it? Iran? Russia? Not even the USA.

54. We would not be in this situation at all if as a Kl’al we lived as Jews,followed Hashem’s Torah and did not emulate the goyim.

    Of course the state should not force those girls to have a secular education but we should all look inside and look at Kl’al Yisroel as a whole and see what Hashem to trying to tell us.

55. #41 are you hashems secretary…do you know hashem commanded us to separate from rishoim.. a few times mentioned in the torah..and plenty times in talmud ‘hibodlu mitoch hueidah harah hazos ‘ would you have yelled ‘achdus’ then . anyone who is boki bechol hatorah and has the klall of’soid hashem liryof’ which all of you dont, such tzaddik can evaluate when to deminstate and when not

56. #53 tell me exactly where i should look, where inside of me, my pockets?

57. #48you say ‘i am quite secure in my beliefs ‘ but what are those? a hindu etc is also secure in his beliefs

58. #34 – i agree that it was wrong on the part of israel to do what they did, but CHAS VESHALOM should our boys get killed by the Iranians!!!! imagine it was your son/brother/father going out to fight…

    #41 – when did you become Hashem?
    and notify me when you do b/c i’m getting outta here that second.

59. A tragic day for the klal. Unfortunately, as much as one would like to follow Chareidi Daas Torah, it is impossible for many to agree.

    The pasuk says that Ki Hashochad Yiaver Pikchim Viyesalef Divrei Tzaddikim.

    The Chareidi world has suffered from the a hatred of the Medinah long before it was ever born, and long before the supposed mayseh of Yaldei Teheran. In 1923, the Agudah proclaimed that the Medinah should not be formed.

    So everything that happens since, must be viewed in the eyes of needing to vindicate what is now a historical embarrassment for them that Jews could think of opposing a Jewish State. As if any other state in the world, all told, treats the Chareidim any better. Even in the USA, doesn’t one have to learn a core secular curriculum? Can one accept govt money and then not follow the govt rules here. Would they allow discrimination?

    Would the Charedim be better off in theeir wonderful alter heim of Germany and Poland? Would they be better off and have more freedom of religion and personal safety and prosperity under the Arabs?

    Since they have clung to a position which is so outlandish and irrational, it has unfortunately clouded the eyes of their leaders. This is what caused the idiotic backlash against Hadassah Hospital last summer. The kindest and most advanced hospital should be a target of Chareidi protests for saving the life of a Chareidi baby?

    One godol recently was quoted as calling the Knesset a Beis Minus which one can’t enter. Should that be taken seriously, as well? Is it worse than any other Parliament in the world.

    Reb Aryeh Levine surely would never have assented to the discrimination in Immanuel, or this hateful protest against the govt. That is the godol I rely on, and probably most of us here who are horrified at the pure sinas chinam unleashed by this episode. We respect his Daas Torah as far greater than any of the others, because he was an oheiv yisroel, and one could see the product of his Torah in his conduct with every Jew. Whether with the soldiers, or the widows, or the Olei Hagardom, or the frum, or the non-frum. Always a smile and warm handclasp, and a caring heart. He never signed any Kol Korei’s. Never engaged in sinah of any kind. He was beloved by the entire govt and people, so they made a special day in his honor in the Knesset and gave him a plaque. Menachem Begin considered him his Rebbe. He was the Rebbe of the whole klal.

    So yes, many of us disagree with what happened today, precisely because we follow Daas Torah. And the Torah says Vchol Nesivoseha Shalom. Talmidei Chachamim are supposed to be marbim shalom baolam. We who follow this Daas Torah are torn because we did not see that happen today, or at any point in this mayseh of Immanuel. We are waiting for true Daas Torah.

    The book about Rabbi Scherer quotes a Chazal that says Mutav lhaamid tzelem bheichal, val yirbeh machlokes byisroel. Better to place an idol in the Beis Hamikdash, then to cause machlokes in klal yisroel. Why has this beautiful quote never been put into practice by the Agudah and Chareidim in their anti-zionist politics. It is always, what machlokes can we make today.

    This is why just so many Chareidi movements are torn in half with their own machlokes. I need not mention names. Because their followers were never taught of the key importance of Shalom above all else, whether with the non-frum, or the Medinah or other groups, they unfortunately fall prey to machlokes among their own. One reaps what he sows.

    Many of us here are waiting for what we know deep down in our hearts is true Daas Torah, Reb Aryeh’s Daas Torah. A Daas Torah that fits with the gemara in Yoma 86, Kol shediburo bnachas im habriyos, that fits with the countless mishnayos in pirkei avos, kol shetiferes lo min haadam, and oheiv es habriyos umekarvan latorah. That is the Daas Torah that has been missing from the scene. It still exists today, but is unpopular and marginalized in the Chareidi world. If you look hard enough, though, you can still find Torah leaders today who exemplify what the Torah really wants from a Jew, which is menschlachkeit. As Hillel said, the whole Torah is mai dsani lach, lchavreich lo saavid. Rebbe Akiva said the same thing, vahavta lreacha komocha, zeh klal godol batorah. Nobody today has more Daas Torah than Hillel or Rebbe Akiva, and nobody has more than Reb Aryeh Levine.

60. Several comments here have stressed the point that mamish all the gedolim of Eretz Yisroel have clearly expressed support for the protest and have strongly urged their followers to attend. The Torah says that we should listen to the gedolim afilu omar lochem al semoil shehu yemin, even if they say that what you see as wrong, they say it’s right. Al achas kamoh ve’kamoh if all the gedolim are saying the same thing. What clearer daas Torah can there be?

61. To clarify my previous comment re Mercaz levayas- Undoubtedly we all grieved at that terrible tragedy, we are not chas vesholom heartless people. But there is no questioning the fact that the chareidi turnout was dismal. Yes, the Belzer rebbe did attend, but I believe that he was the exception that proves the rule.The typical chareidi yeshiva bochur (my own son included)just went about his business and attending the levaya did not even cross his mind. #28, I do have an axe to grind- greater feeling of achdus among shomrei torah umitzvos. We don’t have to agree about everything, but that epic tragedy should have crossed all ideological lines.
    Why is this coming up now? For no reason other than the fact that the hurt and shame that I feel as a chareidi baal haboss has been simmering in my heart for over two years. This just gave me an excuse and a forum to vent. Sorry if it’s off-topic, but if it can make even one person stop and think it will have been well worth it.

62. I usually do not post comments for I feel that my opinion in most matters is not so significant. And it is not to say that in this case, my thoughts suddenly become very important…rather I am perplexed by some of the issues relating to the case and wanted to raise some concerns just as food for thought:

    (I preface these thoughts/concerns by explicitly stating that I admit that I do not have a full handle on the metzius of the situation)

    1) Is it possible that there may be some negative sentiment amongst ba’alei teshuva and those who are not of Ultra Charedi standards as a result of this? This is not to say that frumkeit and halachic observance should be watered down to prevent ever offending someone else, but is it possible that this could have been handled a bit more delicately as not to give off vibes that are causing many yirei Hashem to feel rejected? It would truly be terrible if thousands of Jews who are sincerely trying their best to become observant, give up in despair as they are lead to believe that ‘true frum Jews’ will never accept them.

    2) Is it possible that some of the statements found above in regards to keeping schools “al pi derech Hashem” are over simplistic? In other words, I think it is important that we differentiate between halacha and chumros. Just as it would be foolish and inaccurate to claim that oreo cookies are not kosher as they are not chalav yisroel, so too claiming that the Beis Ya’akov in Emmanuel is not “al pi derech Hashem” may be an exaggeration.” Again, this is not to knock anyone’s lifestyle or to claim which hashkafa is more correct. However, when many of the issues at hand revolve around wearing socks to the knees or bottoned collars, one may be correct to say that these issues or more an issue of personal standard and minhagim and not straight out Torah/derech Hashem.

    3) Perhaps we should be careful when claiming all gedolim believe “x” or all talmidei chachomim think “y.” No question that many of the biggest leaders of Torah Judaism are involved in these protests. However, this I do know from first hand knowledge and a report from another major gadol, that often gedolim are provided the news from other people who unforunately have their own personal or political agendas. It can happen that the gedolim themselves are misinformed regarding the metzius and implications of matters. Additionally, there are always major figures that have more moderate positions but somehow they get exaggerated in the media, both secular and frum.

    To conclude, I agree with everyone that today is a very sad day. Any day that features Jews fighting with other Jews is inherently sad. But, I am not convinced that today should turn into a ‘milchemes Hashem’ where we Torah Jews view this relatively small battle as a major war in the name of Torah. We should always keep things in perspective and try to minimize machlokes and solve legitimate issues in a mentchlech fashion.

    May we all be Zocheh to see only good news!

63. I want to know. Are the Gedolim protesting the fact that the ppl are going to prison or about the issue itself???

    I would think that if the Gedolim felt that this issue was totally l’shem shamayim they would have done something earlier..

    The fact that they are only showing up at a protest when the parents are going to prison says to me that they are only protesting that part.

64. I agree wholeheartedly that this should never, never, never have gone before the Supreme Court, the single most left-wing, anti-religious (chareidi and dati leumi) body in the Israeli Governmental System.

    But, once it did, if you don’t follow the ruling you’re undermining the core system of the society in which you live.

    You want to have a discussion as to whether this was a Kiddush HaShem or Chillul HaShem? Ok, I’ll agree I can see both sides of the coin. But, that aside, this is anarchy.

    From Wikipedia:
    Anarchy (from Greek: ἀναρχίᾱ anarchíā, “without ruler”) may refer to any of the following:

    “No rulership or enforced authority.”
    “Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder.”
    “A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder).”
    “Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere.”
    “Acting without waiting for instructions or official permission… The root of anarchism is the single impulse to do it yourself: everything else follows from this.”

    Secular society has to compromise with on the frum lifetyles but there are times when it goes the other way as well. I think this was one of them.

65. #41, #58 – No achdus? Sinas Chinom? This is one of the greatest instances of achdus that has happened in recent years!! For thousands and thousands of jews, chassidish, chareidi, and dati leumi to all gather together to protect our right to teach Torah is truly breathtaking. Even the Sefardi Gedolim did not come out against these rallies.
    And #58 – This is no “hateful protest against the govt”. This is a peaceful rally against the Israeli government deciding what should and what shouldn’t be taught in chareidi schools. This not about the State of Israel in general, only about this specific act. And I don’t blame these parents – would you want your daughter’s curriculum decided by the Israeli High Court? This was an entirely peaceful demonstration, where do you see this hate?

66. Is this supposed to be YESHIVA World News??
    How do you allow such drivel to be posted? I”m referring specifically to #58.Many of views espoused by him and by other people posting are outright kefirah.It”s very convenient for one to take as his Rav someone who is not alive for a long time.Can you say with absolute certainty what R’Aryeh would say today? And just by the way R’Elyashav is R’Aryeh’s son-in-law. I think that he should know better what his late father-in-law’s views were than someone who just knows him from a book.

67. #58 Pashuteh Yid – 1) You are falling prey to something called “projection” (See 11th definition on Dictionary.com). Unless you where a Talmid Muvhak of Rav. Levin, z”l, you can not honestly state what he would do today if he were alive. You are only talking from the way you perceive him through the stories you read about him and are projecting your own feelings on to him. Such views are in essence worthless.
    2) If it’s true that HaGaon HaRav Zalman Baruch Melamed and HaRav Michel Braun (who are both in the Dati Leumi and Hesder camps) are in support of this atzeres against the Bgatz, doesn’t that trouble you? Aren’t their support of this atzeres a direct challenge to your point of view, being that they are basically agreeing that the Gov should stay out of our internal affairs? Are they in support of discrimination too and in hating the government? Or perhaps they understand the situation a lot better than you do? Perhaps they having been wasting time reading leftist papers that have really distorted the story over here and have actual checked into the matter first hand and have concluded that the bgatz’s discussion is dangerous for the Dati Leumi as well.

    Perhaps you need to reexamine this story and your opinion on it. Best of luck. 🙂

68. SORRY, TYPO IN MY COMMENT #64

    Instead of reading, “Perhaps they having been wasting time reading leftist papers…” it should say, “Perhaps they HAVEN’T been wasting time reading leftist papers…”

69. also, it should have read “…the bgatz’s DECISION…”, not “discussion”.

    Sorry, it’s very late at night. My apologies.

70. The two issues here are
    1) The absolute intolerance of the Haredi community in israel to accept anything different than them – to the extent that there was a wall built in the school to separate different children in grade school !
    2) The aforementioned act was taking place in a school which was receiving state funding

71. #64, And if the Court would order you to work on Shabbos, would you listen to them? Or to deny the existence of G-d? Please learn Neviim, where all jews were punished because they followed their KING! Obviously the Torah is telling us, don’t follow the leaders when it’s against Torah. The greatest anarchy is when the leaders go against the Torah, and the poulation follows them!

72. Obviously Justice Levy took advantage of a situation and went to town with it. Of course the jailing of parents is a travesty. But this Levy knows very well that in general ourside of Emmanuel there is severe discrimination against Sephardim in the ultra-orthodox enclaves. So he has a gas pedal to step on and he is stepping hard. Being that all the Gedolim are protesting, obviously the government is wrong. But behooves all Ashkenazim in E”Y to stop any non-halachic discrimination against Sepharadim. Each case of possible discrimination should be authorized by the Gedolim and should not be taken for granted. This way the government wouldn’t have an excuse to pull off this type of thing with impunity. Levy knows the Ashkenaz – Sephardic discrimination issue is an issue he can roll with. Why do we continue feeding our enemies?

73. How ironic it is that on the day after this tragic story, the UK government announced plans for “free” schools.
    “Free schools will be independent but funded by central government. Groups will have to set out demand from parents, the school’s aims, curriculum, teaching methods and possible sites.”
    Let the Slonimer parents come the UK where their plans would be encouraged, and not struck down!

74. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/10345302.stm

75. #70 beshas gezirus hamalchis ‘afil’ if they tell you to tie your shoelaces like gentiles yeharak val yavor’. seems like most posters are not bnei torah and dont know some yedoos hadas etc