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Why not just say nobility and gentlepersons?
Because, with the exception of very, very few women who held titles in their own right, the wives and daughters of almost all British nobles were called ‘Lady’. The wife would be called Lady Spencer (example wife of Earl Spencer, while their daughter was called Lady Diana. An exception would be daughters of the lowest noble rank, Baronet, who would have been introduced as The Honorable, not Lady.
The wives of those appearing in Birk’s Landed Gentry were also called Ladies.
Gentlemen could be used to refer to all Landed Gentry.
A greeting at a mixed table of nobility and gentry would be ‘Milords, Ladies and Gentlemen.
Because the rest of us are clearly either nobilities and/or gentlepersons?
How could someone be neither a lady or a gentleman? You mean frogs?
The terms “Lady” and “Gentleman” were ranks, so addressing a group of people as such indicated hey were higher than mere peasant, albeit they were still commoners.
We often do the same think using various variants of “Rav” as a form of address to indicate the person if more than a mere Am Ha-Arets. Even “Havrei” indicates the people are “Haverim” – not mere peasants.
Such polite forms of address are found in most languages.
Well today we call everyone a lady or a gentleman, so it doesn’t matter.
l’havdil, we also call all men Rabosai in the zimun.
We differentiate in the zimun the Maranan and Rabbonim from the Rabosai.
Those of you old enough to have grown up in pre-Civil Rights Act USA (1964) may have remembered that ‘colored’ or ‘Negro’ females were called women, not Ladies.
Times have changed for the better
Is referring to women (or men) a negative thing?
Because “Ladies and Germs” is too Borscht Belt.
Guys and Gals is backwards order
Actually Ladies and Gentlemen is backwards (see all the “Ladies First” threads)
Lilmod….
That is because the original: “Milords, Ladies and Gentlemen” has been shortened in modern society as most people are not addressing the nobility when speaking to an audience.
Maranan, V’Rabbanan V’Rabosai…
CTLawyer- what does that have to do with putting “ladies” before “gentlemen”?
In the frum world, it’s very often men and ladies. In a shul, you might have the ladies’ section or the women’s section, but the men’s section is never the gentlemen’s section.
All I know is when the speaker in shul is trying to speak, it’s necessary to call out towards the Ezras Noshim “women, quiet please!”
Yeshivish people usually say “ladies” for married females, and “girls” for unmarried females regardless of age.
MO usually say “women” for married females and for older single females, and “girls” for younger single females.
Not Frum people say “women” for any married and single females over a certain age (I’m not sure what that age is, but definitely once someone is post-high school they would be referred to as a woman in the secular world).
Basically, not-Frum people don’t differentiate based on marital status, Yeshivish only differentiate based on marital status, and MO only differentiate up to a certain age. (not sure what that age is – it probably depends on whether they are MO Machmir or MO liberal or MO middle of the road).
Lilmod…
BECAUSE…in the English language pecking order, the word ‘milords’ was dropped when addressing general audiences (which usually did not include nobility) so the speaker would start at the second word: ‘Ladies.’
The form of address was hundreds of years old….Ladies followed the Lords and then the landed gentry followed titled ladies. Wives of the landed gentry were included in the use of the word ladies.
Yehudayona………….
The mens’ section in the sanctuary is not labeled or referred to as the Gentlemen’s section……
BUT the sign on the male rest room in shul often reads: ‘Gentlemen’
Bochor would be more appropriate. That’s how they’re called to the Torah.
Mr. & Mrs. John Doe is how one formally addresses a couple.
I like being called a girl. I find “woman” to be offensive.
“Bochor would be more appropriate. That’s how they’re called to the Torah.”
Single boys are called to the Torah differently than married men?
“Single boys are called to the Torah differently than married men?”
Yes.
Single men also generally cannot daven as the shliach tzibbur on the Yomim Noraim.
Joseph: it is a preference that someone be married.
It’s racist to call a girl a woman and a boy a man.
LU: “Single boys are called to the Torah differently than married men?”
Joseph:”Yes.”
That’s really interesting, because when I used to work in a school for intellectual baalei teshuva (who were often from liberal left-wing backgrounds), the students sometimes thought it was chauvinistic that adult females were called girls. We had to explain to them that it had nothing to do with chauvinism since adult males are called boys.
The thing is that by boys, you can also use the word “guys” which has no female equivalent.
So it’s interesting to know that with boys/men, people also make clear differentiations between marrieds and singles. AND these are halachic differences, so they are much stronger and more meaningful.
Which proves that it has nothing to do with chauvinism.
Lilmod, why do you find being called a woman to be “offensive”?
Do you think some men might similarly be offended to be referred to as a man?
I prefer being called a woman.
In a frum setting, girl is okay given the context.
In a non-frum/secular environment, I find it offensive.
I think it’s sweet when a little kid calls me ma’am. Makes me feel like an adult.
RebYidd23
Absolutely………………
For decades adult black males in America were called ‘boy.’
It was definitely racist. While adult males were not called ‘boy.’
I’m old enough to call or refer to 30 or 40 year old females as ‘girls.’ It’s not racist or sexist, just that I’m that mush older than them.
CTL, can a woman your age call or refer to 30 and 40 year old males as “boys”?
“CTL, can a woman your age call or refer to 30 and 40 year old males as “boys”?”
I do, and I’m not even his age.
“How is it racist to call a girl a woman or a boy a man? Has this ever been used in a racist context?”
Why is the other way racist?
Lilmod, I find it exceedingly rare, especially in frum society, for adult males to be called boys.
I also believe the reason it is common, especially in non-frum society, to call adult women as girls is as a form of endearment. Like it’s cute to be called a girl instead of a woman (or even lady). Which is why I find it highly problematic for males to call adult females as girls.
If they’re single, they are called boys the same way that single females are called girls. They can also be “guys”, but not men. I don’t call the guys I go out with men even if they were previously married. That sounds weird to me.
Adult men “go out with the boys.” Adult women “go out with the girls.”
Regarding being called up as a bachur, at what age should this stop? There are unmarried men of advanced age. (I suspect this has already been discussed).
Seventy year old bochorim are called to the Torah as a bochor.
“Like it’s cute to be called a girl instead of a woman (or even lady).”
That sounds extremely condescending (if it’s done that way).
“Which is why I find it highly problematic for males to call adult females as girls.”
only if it’s done one way and not the other, but I find that usually people who do one, do the other.
“Seventy year old bochorim are called to the Torah as a bochor.”
Which is the same as saying “boy”, so why do you have a problem with girls being called girls?
A bochor isn’t necessarily a boy. A bochor can be a man.
“only if it’s done one way and not the other, but I find that usually people who do one, do the other.”
What does that mean?
And are you suggesting that married women not be referred to as girls? (As married men are not called a bochor.)
The reason I find it highly problematic for males to call adult females as girls, is that the underlying reason it is used is as as a form of endearment.
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