Piyut of Vechol Maaminim

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  • October 13, 2016 10:37 am at 10:37 am #618514
    Leyzer
    Participant

    In most shuls that I’ve been to, everyone sings each verse beginning with Vechol Maaminim, then the following verse.

    Eg

    Vechol maaminim shehu el emunah,

    Habochein ubodeik ginzei nistoros. Etc etc

    Does anyone go to a Shul where they sing it the other way round, eg

    Habochein ubodeik ginzei nistoros

    Vechol maaminim shehu bochein kloyos volev ?

    I believe the second way is more thematically correct but haven’t found anyone who actually does it that way.

    October 13, 2016 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1186808
    147
    Participant

    but haven’t found anyone who actually does it that way. & shan’t find anyone who does it that way, neither on R’H nor on Y’K.

    October 13, 2016 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1186809
    Leyzer
    Participant

    If that’s the case then it’s certainly sad that (for whatever reason) the entire world is singing it NOT in the manner the Paytan clearly had in mind.

    It doesn’t actually make any sense to sing it with Vechol Maaminim starting the verse!

    October 13, 2016 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1186810
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I was wondering the same. Why is that?

    October 13, 2016 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1186811
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Maybe because you’re supposed to say the first line in the same breath as you end the previous paragraph, leaving you starting at V’chol Maaminim.

    October 13, 2016 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1186812
    golfer
    Participant

    Interesting.

    Even though I never thought to ask –

    – along the lines of: if this is what’s being done then this must be the way it’s supposed to be –

    I’m joining everyone above waiting to see if someone has an answer.

    October 13, 2016 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1186813
    Meno
    Participant

    “It doesn’t actually make any sense to sing it with Vechol Maaminim starting the verse!”

    Why not?

    The only issue seems to be that the lines aren’t paired up correctly, not that you’re starting with Vechol Maaminim

    October 13, 2016 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1186814
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We say most of the piyutim like that. Like ata hu elokeinu bashamayim uvaaretz, and like l’kel orech din.

    October 13, 2016 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1186815
    Leyzer
    Participant

    to TheRealDonaldTrump (I seriously hope you’re not, became Ayn Odom Maysim Atzmo Rosho):

    Firstly, doing something just because “that’s the way we do it”, isn’t really what I’m looking for.

    Second, the other piyutim basically make sense however you read them./ But Vechol Maaminim was clearly designed by the Paytan to pair up 2 of the same Middos in each verse. The way we sing it, we lose this meaning.

    Look – I’m not the first person to think of this – all the old Machzorim print it with Vechol Maaminim ending the phrase.

    October 13, 2016 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1186816
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    And I thought it was only in my Shule.

    Does anyone here know the reason?

    October 13, 2016 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1186817
    The little I know
    Participant

    I suspect that this became customary for many piyutim in order to facilitate the continuity of the recitation, as if the tzibbur and the baal tefilah are continually finishing the other’s sentence. Actually, the piyut of V’chol maaminim actually makes more sense the way we recite it.

    Is anyone aware that this particular piyut is far older than all the rest? It is reportedly written by Ezra Hasofer and Zerubavel. That dates it to the beginning of the second Bais Hamikdosh. Even the rest of the tefila dates back to the earliest known – Anshei Knesses Hagedola, who were towards the end of the second Bais Hamikdosh. Interesting.

    October 14, 2016 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1186818
    Leyzer
    Participant

    Allow me to clarify what I meant by “It doesn’t actually make any sense to sing it with Vechol Maaminim starting the verse!”

    The Paytan used a double Alef Beis acrostic to pair together for each Middoh of Hashem a definition of that Middoh, and an elaboration of it. For example:

    Habochein ubodeik ginzei nistoros

    Vechol maaminim shehu bochein kloyos volev

    Hashem is the One who inspects hidden secrets

    and we all believe that he is the one who inspects our hearts

    There is an obvious connection between the 2 verses.

    The way it is commonly sung, this connection between the 2 verses is lost. We are left with two disparate comments that have little to do with each other. Using the above example:

    Vechol maaminim shehu bochein kloyos volev

    Hagoel Mimoves upodeh mishachas

    and we all believe that he is the one who inspects our hearts

    The one who Redeems from death and saves from destruction

    There is no connection between these 2 phrases.

    NB.

    Just occurred to me that the use of the letter Vov (“And”) in “Vechol” further indicates it was meant to follow, rather than start, a verse.

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