- This topic has 42 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
The US has just announced that it plans to give Israel a whopping 3.8 BILLION dollars in aid in the coming years. And mind you, this comes on top of the even more astronomical $233.7 BILLION (!!!) in aid ?(adjusting for inflation?) that the US has given Israel since the state was formed in 1948 (according to a recent HaAretz article). So just out if curiousity:
1) Do those posters here who think that it is wrong for Chareidim to take aid from the State of Israel also think it is wrong for Israel to be taking so much aid from the US?
2) Do those who believe that the State of Israel should be able to influence/dictate the policies of Chareidi institutions/society that they help fund similarly believe that Obama/Hillary/Kerry should be able to influence/dictate the policies of Israel since they help fund it?
The government gives some Hareidim money in order to influence them and to try to pull them off the derekh of the “pure” hareidim (such as Satmar) who oppose the medinah. As the hareidi community is largely funded by money from overseas, stimulating it actually helps the Israeli economy since it attracts investments, business and transfer payments from overseas.
The Americans give Israel money for several reasons. A big one is to support jobs in America (by subsidizing Israel purchases of American made goods which could more easily be produced in Israel, albeit at a higher cost). It also addicts the Israelis to American money and gets them to do America’s bidding in the middle east.
Why would an anti-israel like obama approve such an aid package?
Just wondering.
Akuperma, I think the OP implied your points in his post. His question is, if Israel shouldn’t give money (bribe) the chareidim to act as they would like them to, why should we be OK with the US doing just that to Israel?
To answer the OP’s question with my own opinions, no I don’t think it’s OK to give money with strings attached to basically bribe in either case. I think it’s hypocritical when the hardcore Zionists rebuke the chareidim for not taking state money, but then turn around and talk about the importance of making Israel financially independent for reasons that would apply in both cases.
mw13: (1) I don’t think it’s wrong for Chareidim to take state money. I think it’s wrong for Chareidim that take money to openly support Palestinian rule over the entire Eretz Yisroel (Satmar, some of Brisk, etc.). (2) Yes.
But I think that Chareidim would be much better off if we were self sustaining as opposed to relying on government handouts and tzedaka. I also think that Israel would be better off rejecting American weaponry.
akuperma: In what universe is the Chareidi community “largely funded by overseas money”? Do US askonim fund Tipat Chalav? Is Cheder tuition $1500 a year because of some hidden g’vir from Belgium?
Yserbius: Neither Satmar nor Brisk supports Palestinian rule.
And both Satmar and Brisk refuses to accept any State funding, even what they’re legally entitled too. They are self sustaining.
Joseph: Patently false. Both Satmar and Brisk have no problem accepting state funding for their shuls and Yeshivos (with the exception of the big ones that are funded by American dollars). And I’ve never heard of a sick person or pregnant woman pulling out a wad of cash at Bikur Cholim or Shaare Tzedek because they refuse to accept the state medical care.
Yseribus, what I stated is 100% true. Both Satmar and Brisk completely reject and decline all state funding they’re legally entitled to. For their yeshivos and everything else.
1. The money the US government is “giving” (how much is actually in the form of loan guarantees) is far less than what it would have to spend to maintain a sufficient presence in a Mid East without Israel. Moreover, the amount that Israel must spend in America is beinggradually raised until it is almost the full amount of the aid.
2. Chareidim who do not believe in the State should not take money from it.
3. What do you mean by “influence the policy”? Are there officials who insist on giving shiurim? As for welfare payments to Chareidim, the government has every right to insist that they undergo job training and register for placement according to their abilities. Obligations must be mutual. If the public has an obligation to help poor people (which it does)individuals have an obligation to do their best not to be a burden on the public (which they do). Thus the government has every right to send inspectors to check (without prior warning) if the number of learners registered is, in fact, the number who are actually learning. It also has the right, through the Chief Rabbinate, to insist on exams in order to verify that it is getting the product for which it pays.
I enjoy reading the folks living on the other side of the pond pontificating about what they think goes on in E.Y. When you’ve lived here for nearly 4 decades, you are just more aware of what is really happening. There is so much stuff going on that people don’t hear about, that never gets back to Williamsburg, Monroe, Lakewood, or anywhere else. Brisk and Satmar do not haul their own trash, provide their own street lighting, have their own private telephone company, and do not have their private fire department or ambulance service (when Hatzola answers a call and decides an ambulances is needed, they themselves call the regular MDA ambulance service; this is known from personal experience.) And for those who are not aware, Brisk participates in municipal elections. Because that’s what the Brisker Rav, Rav Velvel Soloveitchik zt”l instructed them to do.
Akuperma seems to think that all non-Satmar chareidim are required to disobey / disavow the decisions of the Chazon Ish, the Steipeler, Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, Rav Zalman Sorotzkin, Rav Leizer Sach, Rav Elyashiv, zt”l just to name a few that come to mind, and follow what he thinks Rav Yoel mi’Satmar zt”l held. This, despite the opinion of nearly all the non-Satmar rabbonim of today — led by Rav A.L. Shteinman, Rav C. Kanievsky shlit”a — who also rule that it is permissible to take Zionist money.
In any case, nowadays, some institutions that outwardly deny accepting such funding are quietly taking money under different budget items from different government ministries, not the Education Ministry. According to akuperma, only those following the Satmar agenda are “real chareidim” but those who follow their rabbeim or any other gadol, like the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach, the Steipeler, etc. — are not real chareidim. Us non-Satmarers do not expect the Satmarers to disobey their rebbe. So, why should the Satmerers (incl. akuperma) expect us to disobey ours?
This is entirely separate from the question whether the state should accept U.S. money or not. This is a much less relevant question, as you can all be quite sure the Israeli govt. is not paying much attention to what some talkbackers are writing in the YWN CR.
Edited. Any further attempts to reveal another poster’s identity will result in your being blocked.
No one has answered my question from yesterday.
In addition, i saw the following in the article on YWN about obama and netanyahu meeting next week.
So again, why would obama who is very anti-israel, approve such a large aid package?
Just wondering.
Anyone?
AY: 1) Trash, street lights, telephones, electricity, etc. existed in the pre-Zionist State days 2) The chareidim didn’t ask them to install any of those things 3) The chareidim pay for their own use of telephone service, trash removal, electricity, etc., just as they did from before the state came around.
I care nothing about Israeli politics. I don’t know what a Likud or Karta is. Never been on a plane either, though that has little relevance to the matter.
What matters is that America and England are ok with men holding hands. Babylonian society was said to be like that.
american_yerushalmi: why are you getting so worked up? so akuperma thinks he and his friends are the only true chareidim. Let him think so.
To the OP: I find your question a little strange.
Question 1 is directed at people who think the Israeli state is so evil it’s immoral to take money from it. Than you ask whether it’s moral for The same evil state to take money from the US. Didn’t we agree it (the state) was immoral anyway?
Question 2: What does it mean if the US “should be able to” dictate? there are no ethics in politics. If they want to dictate, they can try. If they manage to, good for them.
It sounds like you’re trying to make a point but you think it’ll be clearer if you didn’t actually make it. Please do say what’s bothering you about the US giving money to Israel.
Joseph: Right, and now the chareidim are paying the zionists for those services instead of the British. So, just like you pay for trash removal, street lighting, etc, you also pay taxes and you get govt. services, including school funding. That is exactly what the Chazon Ish said. That if the chareidim are paying taxes to the medinah, it’s considered that we’re receiving what we’re paying for. Sort of like “your tax shekels at work…”
Incidentally, the fire dept. and ambulance service (MDA) are not like the phone company or electric company where you pay for what you get. Fire and ambulance services are paid for by the state. Not aware of any “real” chareidim who don’t use those services.
AY: The major difference between government educational funding and all the other things, is that once you accept government educational funds you place yourself at the mercy of the anti-religious government dictating to you how to conduct chinuch habonim. As the Zionist government has repeatedly demonstrated with their meddling in yeshivos that accept government funds.
Joseph: Interesting that the Chazon Ish and all the other gedolim didn’t think of that…. The zionist govt. huffs and puffs from time to time about telling the yeshivos what to do, because they have a psychological need to be able to pretend they are are truly in the driver’s seat calling the shots. In actual fact, over the 38 or so years that I’v been living here, I can’t think of even one demand that they have made to which the gedolei Torah had to capitulate. Potentially, the regime could c”v shut down any mosad they wish for any sort of spurious reason, whether or not they accept ‘zionist money.’ Hashem watches over ????? ????? and has ensured that in actual fact, this has not occurred. Don’t forget that today we are a population of at least 800,000 people (???”? ?? ????) and the regime would have a very difficult time putting all these people c”v in jail. Can you begin to imagine the furious outrage that would erupt if the police would even just knock on Rav Chaim Kaniensky’s door to “arrest” him, c”v. Every highway, intersection, shopping center would be ablaze with enraged chareidim protesting. Mass arrests of ‘divinity students’ would not play well on the evening news in the U.S., causing the regime a huge black eye.
Honestly, it’s not the 1950s anymore when we were at best a few thousand; we are B”H a huge tzibbur here today that the govt. needs to reckon with. Obeying the da’as Torah of the Gedolei Torah of the past generations and the present is our guarantee.
When governments give you something, it is usually because they want something in return. The zionists give the hareidim money because they want them to “behave”. The Americans give the Israelis money to make sure the Americans will do their bidding and not get in America’s way (with the added benefit that American aid is designed to reserve American jobs by requiring the Israeli to cripple their own military industries).
If Israeli hareidim want to free of zionist control, they need to reject zionist funding. If the Israelis want to be independent of the American government, they need to turn down foreign aid. Neither is likely to happen.
AY: Isn’t it more interesting that the Brisker Rov and other gedolim did think of that? Emmanuel didn’t happen all too long ago when the Israeli Supreme Court put people in jail for not following their dictates how to operate the beis yaakov. And the government meddling in policies of chinuch occurs repeatedly with the government threatening withholding of money unless its demand are met.
Obeying the da’as Torah of the Gedolei Torah of the past generations and the present is our guarantee.
Daas Torah is not infallible.
Oh yeah.. straight out of last week’s parsha..
????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??..
????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????…
And some anonymous brave blogger tells you he’s smarter than HaShem..
In gemarah language I think they’d say ???? ??????…
Wrong again (so far you are batting .000), Joseph. The electric company was originally a Zionist enterprise established by Pinchas Rutenberg. Phone service has indeed been privatized for decades but the infrastructure is provided through eminent domain. Trash colection ad stret lights are provided by municipalities, which receive a good part of their money from the Ministry of the Interior. In fact, Chareidi extremists increase the trash problems by starting fires – in their own neighborhoods – to protest something they do not like.
American Yerushalmi, the daat Torah is not of the gedolim but of the katanim who surround them like medieval courtiers. They control whom the gedolim see and what information they receive. One gadol (out of respect and I will not mention his name) even stated explicitly that he signs what “his rabbis” sign. The fact that he is not alone was proven by the banning of books in English by gedolim who do not know English and without interviewing the author. In some cases their have even been forgeries. Their is one tzedaka request that shows a picture of Rav Kanievsky purportedly learning from a sefer. A close examination shows in to be a New Testament (obvious a Photoshop job).
Akuperma wrote: “If Israeli hareidim want to free of zionist control, they need to reject zionist funding.”
Can you show an instance where this has actually happened? Not the govt. sputtering and threatening to intervene, but actually closing a mosad or forcing a change in curriculum? If you can, I suggest arranging a meeting with Rav A.L. Shteinman and Rav C. Kanievsky, and try to persuade THEM to accept your point of view. Arguing with me or anyone else on this forum is not going to change the way the chareidi tzibbur thinks and conducts itself.
Joseph: I was being sarcastic about the Chazon Ish “not thinking about it.” Of course, he thought about it. And he still paskened the way he did. Emmanuel was an ENTIRELY different story. The sad story of chareidi discrimination against “others” (it is also perpetrated against “Americans” [unless you have gobs of money to ‘donate’ to the mosad you want to get your child into) and against ba’alei teshuva. It is a sociological problem that some folks have tried to transform into a religious issue. The govt. tried to intervene saying no discrimination in schools that accept govt. funding. So, after trying to “jail” a few parents for a day or two, they were released. The parents who insisted on continuing to discriminate opened their own school.
Aside from some occasional govt. sputtering and threatening to intervene, I cannot think of any instance of it happening.
Indeed, “our tax shekels at work” — in accordance with the opinion of the Gedolei Torah. You think it should be otherwise. I’ll give you the same advice I wrote to Akuperma. Arrange a meeting with the gedolim here, and try to argue your case. You need to persuade the gedolim, not me. Of course, when Reb Chaim Kanievsky will ask you why you are living in the U.S. and not here, you will need to come up with a good explanation.
Takahmamash: question: do you mean ALL da’as Torah or just the opinion of those whose opinion you somehow don’t agree with? Is the da’as Torah expreessed by Rav Yoel mi’Satmar infallible?
One more time: we don’t expect the Satmars to abandon their Rebbe and to follow our rabbonim; Satmar ought not expect us to abandon our rabbonim and gedolim and follow theirs.
Ah, but Joseph, without getting into an argument about the halachic or hashkafic issues, If the governemnt funds the schools, it isn’t meddling when they have certain minimal expectations. Its ROI. Every publicly funded school system in the world works the same way.
Chareidi schools which don’t take a dime from the govt either above or under the table have a much better argument to make about setting their own curriculum.
AY: So now you’re coming out against the gedolei yisroel who publicly stood in support of the Emmanuel Beis Yaakov and parents who were jailed by the Zionists!? Rav Elyashev, Rav Chaim, Rav Aharon Leib, Rav Shmuel, etc. personally came out to the public rallies in support of the parents and beis yaakov and they themselves, despite their age and difficulty, festively marched b’simcha with the parents to the Zionist jail cells. Don’t deny that the government meddled then in the beis yaakov, trying to break the chareidim to defy the gedolim who directed the beis yaakov and parents on that conflict, as the government often meddles into yeshivos that take its funds.
And THIS is a prime example of why the Brisker Rov zt’l, Satmar Rebbe zt’l, and other gedolei yisroel zt’l and shlita specifically said NOT to accept Zionist money for yeshivos and beis yaakovs.
Emmanuel was a single instance and resulted in a huge backlash against the medina stating rules for Yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs. There have only been a handful of similar incidents over the last few decades, such as the recent attempt at a ruling for the Misrad HaChinuch to define Bais Yaakov curriculum. It’s a song and dance that the government and Chareidim go through every few years. The government makes some decision, the Chareidim protest, and everything returns to normal.
I’d also like to get back to the thing I brought up earlier. These mythical people who somehow manage to spend their lives in ??? ???? without taking money from the government working for institutions that also take no Zionist money. Let me get this straight: They exist, but they probably number less than 100. I mean, when I was in Eretz Yisroel I heard of the idea. So did nearly every Israeli born Chareidi I knew. But when pressed, few of them could think of a single person who actually followed it.
There’s the Soleveitchik family, who support each other due to the fact that they have a lot of big American donors. Most of the money goes to one or two Yeshivas, which goes to the families as salaries. When they need medical attention, they fly to Europe and go to hospitals there so as not to have to rely on ???? ?????. I believe the Tannenbaums in Satmar B’nei Brak have a similar situation, but that’s about it. The vast majority of Chareidim, no matter how anti-medina/pro-Badatz they are, simply cannot live without government support.
And for that matter, Satmar and many other Chareidishe groups are pro-Palestinian rule. They aren’t all Neturei Karta, but they don’t exactly oppose their ????? either. How else do you interpret the words “?????? ??????? ??? ??? ???????”? Or setting clocks to “Islamic time” (12:00 is shekia) so as to not acknowledge “medina time”?
Yserbius123: Fully agree with your explanation of the Emmanuel Bais Yaakov episode, but not the matter of chareidi support for pro-Palestinian rule. No reputable frum organization (emphasis on reputable), no rabbinical figure of any kind here endorses murderers of Yidden ruling in E.Y. The words ?????? ??????? in that 50+ year old ditty refer to non-acceptance or non-recognition of the zionist regime, but doesn’t express any sympathy for murderous arab terror organizations. As to following “Islamic time” — this clock was used by the Yishuv Hayoshon from Turkish times, and wanting to retain it expresses the rejection of the zionist takeover. (You just pick up stuff when you’ve lived here for a few years….)
Joseph: I guess the conversation has reached an impasse. You are not addressing my points or questions, and just keep on repeating your ideas, albeit with somewhat different wording at each posting. I mean, the very same Rav Elyashev, Rav Chaim, Rav Aharon Leib, Rav Shmuel, etc. whom you cited as supporting the parents’ efforts to keep the Israeli Education Ministry out of the decision-making in the Emmanuel Bais Yaakov — are the SAME who endorse and follow the psak of the gedolim of the previous generation who permitted taking Education Ministry funds. The two opinions are not mutually exclusive. Relieving the Israeli govt. of its funds is allowed; but their meddling in a school’s internal affairs is not, as Yserbius pointed out. As an aside, although the rabbonim surely supported the position of the parents at the Emmanuel Bais Yaakov, they did *not* personally came out to the public rallies. Rav Elyashiv zt”l was extremely ill and frail at that time (about 5 yrs. ago).
I respectfully reiterate my question to Joseph — the question upon which rests the entire disagreement. I, at least, am not insisting that Briskers and Satmarers abandon the ruling of their leaders.
So, please explain why you think that the huge tzibbur of chareidim, bnei yeshiva, Talmidei Chachomim who are following the decision of the Chazon Ish, the Steipeler, Rav Shach, et al, should abandon the psak of the gedolim whom they they have been following for decades.
Of course, you don’t have to reply, but I, for one, would be interested to hear your answer to this question. But, please, i beg you, furnish new insights and not just restating what you’ve already written. Thanks.
Rav Shteinman and other gedolim personally marched with the parents to prison. Rav Eliashev also personally attended an earlier protest against the Supreme Court decision on Emmanuel.
At no point did I suggest anyone not follow their rabbonim’s decision on school funding. I merely opined that the Brisker Rov zt’l and Satmar Rebbe zt’l’s position on this issue has been born out by history as correct and wise.
Joseph, Rav Schach strongly opposed discrimination against the Eidot HaMizrach. What do you think he would have done if he were on the court?
AY, he who pays the piper gets to call the tune. You cannot take money on the one hand and insist on no conditions on the other hand. Of course, you can argue that some particular condition is unreasonable but the public has the general right to verify that it is getting the product for which it is paying. This is no different a potential wealthy donor inquiring into the policies of an institution he is asked to support. For example, it is highly doubtful that a Satmar chassid would donate to a school that has the prayer for the State of Israel in it’s tefilla, celebrates Yom HaAtzmaut, etc.
To adocs: I would like to discuss question. There are a number of possible answers, none of which would be uttered by most Coffee Room participants:
One possible answer: Obama is not anti-Israel. No one in the Coffee Room likes that answer because it runs counter to their strongly held, and substantially unfounded, dislike of Mr. Obama. Many Coffee Room folks do not understand that Obama’s overtures to anti-Israeli governments in the Middle East were not driven by hatred of Israel but by Obama’s recognition that the surest way to lasting peace for Israel is for its neighbors to accept Israel’s right to exist and to direct their attention to the weaknesses in their own societies rather than scapegoating Israel for the problems indigenous to the Arab nations.
Another possible answer, favored by anti-Semites: “Jewish control” of US foreign policy is so strong that not even a president who hates Israel can resist the “Jewish power” to force the US to support Israel.
The reason I like best: President Obama is smart, likes Israel and Jews, and knows that Israel is an important beachhead in the Middle East to resist the Wahabism of Saudi Arabia, the extremist Islamism of Iran, and the indifference of US oil interests in the region to anything that threatens the flow of oil and US oil company profits. Of course, I am a liberal and Democrat, so lots of Coffee Roomers don’t trust me, or understand me.
american_yerushalmi: It may be that no one outright endorses Palestinian rule, but they aren’t exactly supporting any sort of alternative. And the so-called Neturei Karta (to distinguish it from the historical organization of the same name that was supported by gedolei Yisroel) does openly support the destruction of Israel by the Palestinians. One of their late leaders was even Yasser Arafat’s minister of religion. And these people have a ton of acceptance and support among certain Chassidim and Yerushalmis.
Yserbius: No rav, rosh yeshiva, chassidishe rebbe, no responsible organization endorses the idea of Palestinian rule. What alternative is there? Turning the clock back to the British Mandate, the Ottomans, or perhaps the Byzantines, or maybe the Roman Empire???? There is nothing and no one to go back to. Do you have an alternative to put forth? The only way out of this mess is ????? ?’ ?????. So, the consensus da’as Torah is to stick with what there is — a severely blemished medinah. A medinah that provides at least a modicum of protection against the blood thirty hordes that would love to overrun us and slay all of us, c”v. From a ruchniyus standpoint, we have to spread more and more Torah learning, shiurim, kiruv, in order to combat the darkness of secularism.
What you refer to as the “so-called Neutrei Karta” are a side show that no one here takes seriously. Their late leader whom you refer to might have been well intentioned, but he did not rate as any kind of da’as Torah. He did whatever he wanted.
And please don’t accuse the multitude of chareidishe yidden of supporting NK. Most of the people I know disdain NK, and mostly follow their antics for some comic relief. Except for the hundred or so families that comprise the “so-called NK” (some say it’s a hundred people, not families), and a few hangers-on, the vast majority of chareidim here do not support them in any way.
Huju, Obama called our presence in the heart of our land occupation.
I know that NK and no one else endorses Palestinian rule. But NK has a decent amount of support from several major Chassiduses in the US and Israel. You should hang around Meah Shearim and ask people what they think of them.
And I mentioned the lack of alternative to bring to light what NK and their supporters are really saying. If you don’t support Israel, and you wish for it to go away, what you are doing is supporting total Palestinian rule.
mw13 I did misunderstand you. Thank you for explaining.
Regarding your second question: I’ve met some charedi people who think moisdes chinuch in E”Y should have more secular studies than they do today. But they said so simply because they found it reasonable, not because they thought we have obligation to the medina.
If the Education Ministry made some demand that everyone could agree was unreasonable (for example that all schools must be co-ed) I doubt you’d find any charedi who’d say we should listen to them just because they give us money.
Satmar and Brisk, like it or not , DO take from the government, just not direct aid.
They use the Police, they use the roads, they use the public transportation and other government services.,
They probably also use Kupat Cholim (Although I dont know this for sure)
@Yserbius123 “And these people have a ton of acceptance and support among certain Chassidim and Yerushalmis.”
I don’t believe so, and I don’t believe you know that to be true. As you’re a redditor, may I say: [citation needed]
and “You should hang around Meah Shearim and ask people what they think of them.”
Have you?
Speaking as someone who did spend a lot of time around Meah Shearim and speak the vernacular like a native – I doubt that normative residents of Meah Shearim do agree accept Weiss and his ilk.
Like I said, all ultra anti-Zionists may look the same to you, but there are many shades of anti-State-ism and real hashkofos behind each one.
And to turn your statement around, one could argue that if you are in favour of the state, what you are doing is supporting total secularism of Jews in Israel. Which is equally not true – the two sides are more nuanced than that.
Satmar and Brisk also pay taxes such as arnuna, VAT ma’am, etc. etc. etc. They don’t pretend to live in a bubble 100 feet above EY.
I remember reading about an old Yerushalmi who had a well in his backyard and no electricity so that he should not get any services whatsoever from the Zionists.
So there are such people out there.
Most of the posters here seem to be a tad ignorant of basic history.
When the Medinah was founded the Chilonim acknowledged the need for the majority of Chereidim to at least refrain from publicly protesting them. THe Charadim were extremly apprehensive of the proposed government for fear they would seek to impose their ideology on the Chareidim. So in a series of meetings they hashed out a compromise based on four core areas.
One of them was that the Chareidi chinuch insitutions would be completley free of government inteference.
This was a bedrock principle that the State of Isreal was founded upon.
Now of course the elementry schools in Isreal are more or less “public schools” that is becuase the State of Isreal is more or less socialist in nature.
When you go to the store you pay about 17% Vat everyone must pay it, including chareidim.
As such while yes they are more or less free because of the socialist nature of the economy, any attempt to intefere in the chinuch of the chareidim is a violation of the principles upon which the Chareidim agreed to the founding of the State of Isreal.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.