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A post on the ladies first thread promoted this question
With so much pritzus out there how do you do it
I know, some people will say they go to the mountains, or stay in the beis medrash…
Internet filters, staring at the price ring-ups at the cashier instead of at the magazines, steering clear of midtown and generally trying to avoid known pritzus locales, and all-around being a hermit.
But no matter how much you try to protect yourself, something will always infiltrate your safegaurds and borders. Climbing Mt. Everest would work fine, but it’s hard to find kosher restaurants up there. So you have to know your priorities.
coffee addict – im so used to it by now that wherever i go there ALWAYS is pritzus ive given up.
I eat carrots-vitamin a is great for eyesight
This is my issue . I see myself changing even against my wish.
coffee addict – i cant change my life sorry. it is what it is.
1. I try to live in communities where people dress tzniusly.
2. When I lived in the US, I tried to avoid goyish stores/businesses.
3.In the US, I almost always used the ATM at the bank instead of going inside and dealing with the tellers, since the tellers in my bank didn’t dress tzniusly. I actually found out recently that there is another bank which requires its workers to wear uniforms, so there are Frum people who switched to that bank, I think.
4. When I lived on my own, I deliberately didn’t get Internet at home, even though I needed to use it on a regular basis. I went to Cubicles (a Frum Internet place) instead.
5. I tried to avoid the Public Library, but if I had to use it, I trained myself to turn my eyes so that I could avoid looking at the magazine racks when I walked in.
6. When I’m out, if I see there are people around who aren’t dressed or acting tzniusly, I try to avoid looking at them, and I try to avoid walking behind or near them (I cross the street or walk ahead of them).
7. Now when I’m living in someone’s house who has a lot of inappropriate books and photographs around. I try to avoid reading or looking at any of them.
8. I spend time in the CR rather than going to other sites that could be more problematic :).
9. When I was in the US, I went out of my way to avoid goyish transportation.
10. I got adblocker for the computer that I use. I still have to find out more about filters, and find out if I can get a filter just for my account (since it’s not my computer).
11. If I am looking something up on online, and something inappropriate comes up, I try to either log off of the site right away or cover up the part that’s a problem.
12. I try to stick to sites that I already know are okay and not to just google things or “surf the web”. Obviously, I still need to work on that, hence #11.
13. When I was teaching reading, I went through all the books and colored in the untznius pictures (I had a lot of fun coloring in black shells, etc. 🙂 )
I.M. Shluffin: “Climbing Mt. Everest would work fine, but it’s hard to find kosher restaurants up there. So you have to know your priorities.”
Restaurants are more important than shmiras ainayim?!! I think you may want to reconsider your priorities.
I can think of other reasons for not climbing Mt. Everest, but I don’t think that’s one of them.
btw, if you’re sleeping, you shouldn’t have too much of a problem with shmiras ainayim, I.M. Shluffin!
Sparkly – I don’t know why you are saying Motzi Shem Ra on yourself. From other things you have posted, you clearly are working hard on shmiras ainayim. You asked for suggestions of “kosher” books to read, and you mentioned being bothered by the fact that a librarian gave you a book with a treif picture. I was very impressed by that! You obviously are trying to work on it. My impression of you in general is that you are someone who does try to work on herself especially when it comes to tznius matters.
Working on oneself doesn’t mean being perfect tomorrow. It means trying to do what one can and continually finding small steps one can take to improve.
lilmod ulelamaid – its TOO HARD!!
The key to shmiras einayim starts in your mind. If you guard your eyes, but allow your mind to be a hefker, then you are bound to stumble.
You can not dwell on inappropriate thoughts- and if they come up, just ignore, and don’t allow yourself to indulge in letting them fester in your mind. Dont allow inappropriate thoughts to linger. Each time they arise, ignore them, tell yourself that you have to ignore them, and move on.
Additionally:
1) Take your glasses off when you walk outside
2) Learns a few minutes of halachos of shmiras einayim daily- there are a few good books- check local book jewish book store.
3) Install a white filter like yeshiva-net at home.
4) Get an old fashioned cell phone. Have a computer at work and white filter-yeshiva net at home. For calls use an old fashioned cell phone- not a smart phone.
5) Keep Busy- Try to have a morning and night seder- work out if need be. Downtime is the worst thing for shmiras einayim and kedushah.
6) Mechazeik others, that will make you stronger- since nobody likes feeling like a hypocrite.
Sparkly – it’s too hard to be perfect. It’s not TOO hard to take small steps. A small step can mean once a week for one hour being careful not to do a specific thing. Or finding a better alternative for one thing that you do that is problematic.
1) Take your glasses off when you walk outside
I dont wear glasses or contacts, but people I know who do need them to SEE. taking them off can pose a danger for many people as they wont see hazzard and they can get hurt
zd: It’s definitely better than looking in a Smartphone while walking.
In any case, it’s not dangerous to walk down the sidewalk without glasses on even if you are very nearsighted. You might just want to make sure to put them back on before you cross the street, but I don’t know if it’s necessary. I am extremely nearsighted, but I can see a CAR. There have been periods of time in my life when my glasses broke and I had to manage w/o glasses temporarily. It was extremely difficult and inconvenient but not dangerous.
lilmod ulelamaid – i cant right now. most of my friends ARENT jewish. i dont really have anything to do with jewish people. i was just thinking that maybe i will date ONLY mo guys and not more frumer guys because maybe that is my type that i need. but that guy that i was saying is on the more mo side he has LOTS of not jewish friends himself and does LOTS of stuff with them. so its a cute shidduch.
Sparkly – I thought you liked your brother’s friend because he is really Frum.
Not easy.
I have K9 web protection at home and my router is set up with the OpenDNS “Family Safety” which both work more or less fine, unless you try really hard to look for pritzus (which is why my wife can access my browsing history). Work is a different issue. They have a filter, but it’s not as strong as K9 and technically my boss can probably pull up my browsing history but he probably won’t unless there’s some sort of complaint.
I heard a speech by a mashkiach a number of years ago on this issue. I’ll try to convey the gist. I had mentioned that I once saw a group of bachurim in an airport, one of which was wearing a blindfold and being led about by the rest. I asked why we aren’t all going around like that all the time?
Rav Shlomo Wolbe ZT”L used to sit at the front of the bus not make any major effort to avert his eyes. He noticed that many men, mostly young bachurim, would sit in the back and stare at the floor the entire time. He commented “If you try to avoid the b’kiyus you’re just going to get the b’iyun.” In other words, unless you can guarantee that you will never look at a non-relative woman for your entire life (there are two or three tzadikim that can and do live such a life, but only with immense outside support) the first woman you see will have a much stronger effect on you, even if she’s 90 years old and toothless. So don’t go looking for problems, and try to avoid it when you can, but living as a hermit is a terrible idea.
lilmod ulelamaid – what i meant by “more frumer” i meant that he doesnt talk to girls, keeps shomer, wants a tznius frum girl (like me) but still has LOTS of not jewish friends and still does some mo stuff. and since i dont want people knowing to much about me or these shidduchs i will not be saying too much more about them or me sorry. so i will NOT be saying what he does that mo guys do.
I’m so confused – is this the same guy as the one who doesn’t want his wife to cover her hair?
lilmod ulelamaid – thats the guy who DOES want a girl who DOES cover her hair.
oh, okay then. I thought it was the other one. He sounds great then from what you said about him. But I thought he didn’t want to go out with you (we’re talking about your brother’s friend whom you weren’t sure if you should say hello to, right?) If he does want to go out with you, amazing! Go for it!
lilmod ulelamaid – what do you mean he didnt want to go out with me? i NEVER said that i said he DOESNT talk to girls. i REALLY dont want to talk too much about him since his going to be a VERY famous guy in our community soon h’h not saying why and you may have heard of him so i dont want to say too much about him (because his also famous outside my community so LOTS of other frum jews heard or will hear about him h’h).
1) I see every situation as an opportunity not as a whole but on a single time basis. This makes the task easier as I do not need to build a whole building I just need to put one brick at a time.
2)Seforim say that every time you do not look its like fasting 40 days. so that is an easy way to become very holy quickly.
3)When a person is omed in a nisayon he has the opportunity to ask of Hashem anything he wants and give bearachos that will be mekuyim.
Sparkly – sorry, I wasn’t trying to fish for information; I just get confused sometimes by your posts trying to figure out who is who and what is what. I guess since there are so many inter-connected conversations happening on different threads, it’s hard to keep track.
In any case, from the little you have said about him, he sounds awesome, and I hope that everything works out for the best.
lilmod ulelamaid – amen. i hope so too.
I wear goggles when I use power tools. I wear sunglasses when it’s sunny.
Sparkly – Lucky for you, Shmiras Einayim is mostly a male concept. Unless you’ve gone really far (Hamavin Yavin), you asa girl would not have been over anything.
1: Be a “Shafel Ruach”.
2: Histaklus isn’t seeing, it is staring the second time. Don’t look again.
3: You know there are places and things you need to avoid, then do so. Lo Lidei Nisayon.
4: Beware the power of the Dark Side, but don’t obsess. If you think about not seeing pink elephants you will see pink elephants everywhere. Even if there are people not dressed appropriately doesn’t mean you have to notice that aspect and think about it.
GAW – “Lucky for you, Shmiras Einayim is mostly a male concept.”
There is a common misconception that shmiras einayim doesn’t apply to women. Not only does it apply to women as well, I have heard both Rav Shimshon Pincus zatsal & Rav Matisyahu Salomon shlita, yibadel l’chaim quoted as saying that it is more important for women than for men since the woman is the mainstay of the home, and whatever she is exposed to affects the entire home.
Obviously, there is a certain aspect that is only applicable to men, but the concept of trying to be Kadosh and stay away from tumah is something that applies to women too, and possibly even more to women than to men.
And in today’s society unfortunately, we are bombarded with tumah all over the place.
One of my favorite quotes: I heard Rav Matisyahu, Shlita, quoted as saying that taking a girl on a date to Manhattan is like checking a lulav in the bathroom.
(this quote was not necessarily brought as a r’aaya to my above point since he might have been referring to the effect on the boy & not the girl. I just brought it here, because I like the quote and it is relevant to the general discussion. It also shows how kadosh girls are).
lilmod ulelamaid – i agree its also VERY important for women!!
I think the main idea is don’t go to a place full of pritzus if it is totally unessesary. Unless there is a certain store, person, or thing there, or its very close for you, there’s no reason to see extra things we dont need to.
Shopping613: “I think the main idea is don’t go to a place full of pritzus if it is totally unessesary. Unless there is a certain store, person, or thing there, or its very close for you, there’s no reason to see extra things we dont need to.”
True, but it’s more than that too. Even if the store is very close to you, but there is one that has less pritzus and you can get there, it may be worth making the extra effort. Also, you can be careful about internet use (try to limit it, get strong filters, be careful what sites you go on to, etc.) Also, being careful about what you read. If you watch movies/tv, be careful what you watch, or try to stop watching or watch less.
I make sure to always warn my talmidim about the dangers of the internet. This way when my yetzer hara comes, i feel like a hypocrite if i give in.
CA: “Lilmod, I agree 100%!” 🙂
“The issur is lo sasooroo which is a lab, which aren’t women michuyav on general lavim”
I have also heard that the concept of “Ika derech achrita” (not sure if I wrote that correctly) applies to women as well. In other words, if you have a choice, you are not allowed to go somewhere where there is pritzus. I heard the head of a seminary quote this when explaining to his students why they should avoid secular colleges and go to Jewish ones instead (these were girls from MO backgrounds, so college was a given.)
When I was in high school, the principal/administration removed the covers of one our literature books before giving them out to us since they had an inappropriate cover. Of course, there were girls who were curious enough to check the local bookstore to find out what was on it and report to everyone else, so I know that it was a picture of a girl dressed untzniusly. That it the type of thing that not everyone would realize is a problem, so I am thankful that my school was mechanech me in this inyan.
Zev7: I have always felt that one of the best safeguards for all areas of Yiddishkeit is being in Chinuch. You know that people are looking up to you; this helps you be what you should be.
lilmod ulelamaid – the books i was referring to NOT ONLY have not tznius girls on the cover its MUCH worse than just that! the book i was referring to is the kind of book that most bais yaakov wouldnt approve of!
I have heard both Rav Shimshon Pincus zatsal & Rav Matisyahu Salomon shlita, yibadel l’chaim quoted as saying that it is more important for women than for men since the woman is the mainstay of the home, and whatever she is exposed to affects the entire home.
They are both more than welcome to say whatever they want. Unless they have a source (?), I believe they only said so in order that women should not think they can do whatever they want from a Hashkafic standpoint, since “Al Pi Halacha” the Issurim are very limited.
Without an actual source showing me where the Issur D’Oraysa is (as exists for men), I don’t buy it. If you can bring an actual source in Rishonim, I’m certainly willing to be Chozer.
It goes back to the “four types of Tznius” post. A woman can say Kriyas Shema in front of anything except Oso Makom itself, and even then if a woman is sitting it is muttar. As these are all not “Erva” for a woman, there is no reason to think that any of the other issues apply.
Dy- thanks so much for bringing sources. Will look at them later when I have a chance.
DY – A “Medrash Shmuel” and “Mishne Halachos” is extremely underwhelming. I was hoping for a Tur, Rabbanu Yona or Shaagas Aryeh (or similar).
Let’s take a different tact, because I’m not sure we really disagree (as the “Medrash Shmuel” is the exception that I previously mentioned): Are women allowed to go swimming with other women, even though their knees are uncovered? How about a woman’s only drama where there is Kol Isha? Both of these are “not Tznius” and would be Assur for a male.
How about women listening to male singers? Is “Kol Ish” assur for a woman? The “Mishna Halachos” claims yes (and his source is what?). Puk Chazi that Klal Yisroel has no issue with it.
The way I see it the main problem for women to see prizus is that seeing someone who is oyver aveira has bad influence on your ruchnius (this is the main problem I could think of). This is not a problem in the swimming pool where there is no aveyra to begin with. That’s pretty obvious.
With that said, saying that it’s the same chumra for men and women, or that it’s worse for women, seems completely crazy (the idea not the people) because for men histaklus leads to hirhur (?????) and maase (????) So I’m sorry but it makes no sense.
LU I think you would agree with me yourself if you knew what a big deal they made of shmirat aeinaim in the yeshivos, as opposed to how little they talk about it in seminaries.
The issue is with women looking at men, not women looking at women.
I’m not getting why a ???? ????? would be underwhelming to you, when it’s quited by rishonim.
Just because one way in which the ???? ????? applies it doesn’t seem to be accepted (I agree), doesn’t take away from my point that it is accepted as a halachic source.
The issue is with women looking at men, not women looking at women.
Check that with Sparkly and LuL, both of them who were discussing women not dressing Tznius.
I’m not getting why a ???? ????? would be underwhelming to you, when it’s quited by rishonim.
It isn’t a Halacha Sefer. Besides, it would not be a Chiddush that there is an Issur of Histaklus for women with the specific intent of causing Hirhurim. Even without the obvious male-oriented issur, there could still be the Lav of “Lo Sasuru”.
Just because one way in which the ???? ????? applies it doesn’t seem to be accepted (I agree), doesn’t take away from my point that it is accepted as a halachic source.
By whom? You could also be quoting me Satmar on mandated Denier of stockings.
Obviously in this instance he is not accepted by anyone in Klal Yisroel. That, and the fact that it seems to be unsourced, makes it “underwhelming”.
The sources were brought as response to you, not them.
DY – Explain?
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