Kollel Life in Eretz Yisroel is More Difficult and a Greater Sacrifice than Army

“Some of this is true, but what about the fact that people in the army are risking their lives? Many soldiers are killed/captured/wounded, that is a sacrifice people who avoid the army do not make.”

That is true, and my post was not intended to belittle the sacrifices made by chayalim, and I am “makir tov” to them as well (even though I personally feel that they would be helping the country more by learning, and I think that the Yeshiva Bochurim are doing more for me, I realize that they don’t realize that/feel differently/can’t be learning/perhaps we do need some people in the army to protect the country physically, etc., and that they are putting their lives in danger to help Am Yisrael.

However, the sacrifices made by those who choose to learn instead of going to the army often go unnoticed and people assume they are “taking the easy way out” when in fact, the sacrifices they are making may in fact be much greater.

A few points to keep in mind when comparing the sacrifices made:

1. Not all chayalim put their lives in danger. Only the ones in combat units do. I don’t know numbers, but MANY chayalim are not in combat units and are not putting their lives in danger.

2. In Israel, most or much of the danger from the enemies affects everyone equally (bombs, scuds, terrorist attacks, etc.)

3. If you grow up in Israeli non-Chareidi society, for the most part you don’t WANT to NOT go to the army. If you don’t go to the army, you are not a MAN. Boys who are not accepted into the army are not happy about it and TRY to get in (I have personally known boys like that who were VERY upset about not getting into the army or not getting into a combat unit).

4. It is very difficult to compare one type of difficulty to another, and I know that this is going to cause a lot of back-and-forth arguments (sigh), but it does seem to me pretty clear actually that not having a parnassah is one of the greatest challenges that there is, and most people would willingly put their lives in danger to earn a parnassah if they had to. We see all the time that this is so – in the olden days, people worked in dangerous mines (I think – I don’t know history so well, so I may need help from fellow posters on this one, but I am sure that people have always been willing to put their lives in danger and do whatever it took to earn a parnassah).

The Aruch HaShulchan in the halachos of bentching mentions that not having a parnassah is the greatest difficulty that one can have.

5. One of the MK’s from a non-Chareidi party said that there are three services that Israelis perform for the country:

a) army service, b) working c) Limud Torah.

She said that of the three, Limud Torah is the hardest since unlike army service, it does not merely last for 3 years but rather for many,many years,maybe an entire life. Also, unlike most jobs which are only for 8 hours a day, learning is for the entire day. Learning involves the most intense on-going commitment of any of the 3 types of service.

6. I have heard that it is REALLY difficult to learn all day. My impression is that it is much harder than going to the army. This may be hard for an American to understand (especially someone who is not learning all day). On the one hand, if you haven’t tried to do it, it is hard to understand how hard it is to learn all day. On the other hand, if you are not from Israel, going to the army sounds like the hardest thing in the world. I am not saying it is not hard, but if you grow up with it, it is not AS hard as it sounds. You do not have to be as self-motivated as you do when you learn.

7. Living in Israel, not going to the army IS going against the tide. While it is true, as someone pointed out in another thread, that if you are part of Chareidi society, in a certain sense, deferring army service is not going against the tide, at the same time, in a certain sense it is (which is why I initially said so and why I still stand by that). Even if you are part of a Chareidi society, you are still part of the country as a whole. You are very aware of the fact that the country is at war, and you hear about chayalim being killed, and you are aware that they are fighting (physically) and you are not. You are very aware of what the rest of the country thinks of you for not fighting (physically). You have to go down to the draft deferment office on a regular basis and prove that you are learning so that you don’t have to go to the army. You can’t get a job because you didn’t go the army. You are despised and looked down at as a draft dodger by many, including many religious people. Posters in the Coffee Room of Yeshiva World write posts for the entire world to see saying that you are taking the easy way out because you don’t want to go to the army. You don’t receive the many benefits that the government gives those who go to the army. Instead of being supported by the government, you have to pay the government money every month from the time you turn 18 even though you are in Yeshiva and not earning any money. The government holds you prisoner and will not allow you to leave the country even for a visit without their permission (which they will only grant for specific reasons and for a specified period of time).

Yet you are willing to make these sacrifices because you know it is for Am Yisrael’s own good.

8. Keep in mind that even if you want to claim that as an individual in the Chareidi world, someone who defers the army is not going against the tide, the Chareidi world itself didn’t come out of nowhere. The Chareidi world had to fight against the tide and is continually fighting for its very existence. The Chareidi world started out as a tiny, powerless entity, and is continually fighting for its very existence against the Secular Zionist Government who is in control and much more powerful and is continually trying to destroy it. They have only managed to succeed in maintaining their community through their constant vigilance and vigor in defending their right to exist and not be swallowed up by the Secular Zionist society that is trying to pressure them to assimilate. If an individual in Chareidi society feels that it is easy (which I can’t imagine to be the case) to learn and defer army service, it is only because the Chareidi society has been fighting very hard against the tide to create a society like that – a society in which it is possible for a boy to grow up and learn Torah and not assimilate into the secular majority.

Please Note: there is something a bit troublesome about arguing about who is sacrificing more than who. We all have to try to look at each other positively and appreciate what each one is doing for Am Yisrael and not be trying to prove who is better. I would really appreciate it if people would make sure that this thread does not turn into a sinas chinam/motzi shem ra thread. I am not trying to belittle the sacrifices that ANYONE makes for Am Yisrael or find the worst in anyone. My sole purpose was to defend those people who are defending the country by learning Torah against those who spoke negatively about them. Everyone is aware of the sacrifices made by chayalim; the sacrifices and contributions made by Bnei Torah are harder for many to see, so it is important to emphasize them. I personally feel (as do Gedolei Yisrael) that if one wants to give to Am Yisrael, he can give the most by learning Torah, and that we have to show the utmost respect and hakaras hatov to those who learn. On the one hand, through learning, one can do the most for Am Yisrael, so those who learn are doing the most for us. On the other hand, it IS harder for most people to see it, so it has to be emphasized. At the same time, I respect those people who feel they are contributing by serving in the army and/or working and I have hakaras hatov to them as well.

Regardless of who you feel is sacrificing the most and whether or not you agree with my points, that is not the most important issue anyhow. Those who decide to learn don’t make the decision to do so because they think it involves more sacrifices. They do so because they feel they are helping Am Yisrael the most this way, regardless of whether it involves more sacrifices or less sacrifices. It leads to less sacrifices; that is why they do it, and that is what counts.

Again, I beg of all of you, do not turn this into a Sinas Chinam thread. Most of you are neither learning full-time or serving in the army. You are not helping Am Yisrael in either of these ways. If you want to help Am Yisrael, if you want to make sure that one less chayal is killed, that one more mother does not have to sit shiva for her teen-age son, you can do your part by refraining from Loshon Hara and Sinas Chinam. In that way, you can accomplish much, much more than all of the chayalim in the Israeli Army put together.

Kesiva V’chasima Tova!

I am not going to get into the debate of Learning vs the Army

HOWEVER if even ONE charedi insults a soldier, or does something like going partying in Eilat during bein Hazmanin, It severly damages the argument.

Obviously charedi society is not monolithic, but they put forward the idea that they are monolithic. Obviously most people can tell the differnce between a secular jew who is a lawyer and has a wife and family and a secular jew who is an “alternative lifestyle” with tattos everyhwere. However the charedim themsevles do not distinguist between someone who is an illui and can learn 18 hours a day and someone who can barely learn 2 hours a day

The main problem a lot of people have with Kollel vs army service is not that people learn all day and don’t serve. It’s that a system has been created where serving is Assur and learning all day is mandatory.

I lived in Charedi society in Israel for many years, and even though not all soldiers are attacked and abused by all segments of Charedi society, there is a strong stigma and they are looked down upon.

Yair Lapid was guilty of bad choice of words when he used the phrase ‘sharing the burden’ implying army service was a burden and Kollel was not.

However, it is still true that those who do not wish to learn all day and want to serve should be allowed to do so. People talk so much about how terrible the IDF is for religious boys, but in my personal experience, far more people I know went OTD by hanging around outside the Mir during Seder because they couldn’t be bothered learning but the system they went through forced them too, then people serving in religious units.

Let the Charedi leadership call out those who throw things or insult who insult the soldiers. Silence = Agreement

it would go along way to ending the debate if soldiers were not looking down upon or worse

LU, I don’t agree with several of your conclusions but almost all of your points have some merit and are made in an articulate manner without rancor. That’s pretty rare in the CR when talking about these subjects. Kol hakavod.

I do have two issues with what you wrote.

Considering the way that you describe Torah learning and army service as meritorious in their own rights, I imagine that one could find an ideal solution in a system not too dissimilar from the existing hesder system. There are indeed a few Yeshivot somewhat to the right of the usual dati tziyoni types which participate in such a modified program. I wonder, could there be any solution which would bring more achdus, more good hashpooh on Israeli society in general, more understanding than something like this?

My second issue is my only serious criticism of your post. You speak of a Secular Zionist government trying to destroy the chareidi world. Really? There are more chareidim, receiving significant government money and resources although not at the highest levels, commensurately proprtional to reductions elsewhere in Israeli budgets; more yeshivos in Israel (and significant public funding for many of them) and more people studying Torah in them than at any point since maamad har sinai; There are government funded streets, utilities, fire services, police, infrastructure, energy, water resources, insurance, pensions, public transportation, all of which the Chareidi tzibur makes use of every day. There is significant though incomplete observance of halacha regarding shabbos, kashrus and mikvaos, not to mention civil defense and disaster preparedness.

When one is out to “destroy” something, as you claim, it is absurd to do so by funding, protecting, supporting and facilitating it.

Moreover, your contention depends on a fundamental conceit, that there is intent to destroy and a rationale for doing so. Frankly, if you bother to speak to all but the most radical secular ideologues (who have been out of government for more than 20 years in any case), they are not motivated to hate or change or destroy the chareidi velt.

You think they stay up at night figuring out ways to harm chareidim? They have many other things to think about, some of which are important, like how to earn a living, how to afford an apartment, or how to be safe in a crazy region, how their children are doing or how they are going to pay to fix the air conditioner that just broke; some of which are not important but entertaining or amusing, like who won kochav nolad, how to get to the beach tomorrow, or what that new restaurant is like. They care about responsibilities and privileges that affect Chareidim and they feel should be equitable, and they care about their individual rights being respected and infringed, but beyond that they frankly think about you way less than you imagine. And the vast majority of secular Jews are simply not ideological.

The threatened existence or “destruction” of the Chareidi velt by “di andere”, the Tziyonim (most of whom these days are traditional or religious, BTW) or anyone else aside from those who threaten ALL Jews and Israelis is an artificial construct, a straw man. Why it is used and who benefits I will leave to you to determine for yourself.

You think they stay up at night figuring out ways to harm chareidim? They have many other things to think about, some of which are important, like how to earn a living, how to afford an apartment, or how to be safe in a crazy region, how their children are doing or how they are going to pay to fix the air conditioner that just broke; some of which are not important but entertaining or amusing, like who won kochav nolad, how to get to the beach tomorrow, or what that new restaurant is like. They care about responsibilities and privileges that affect Chareidim and they feel should be equitable, and they care about their individual rights being respected and infringed, but beyond that they frankly think about you way less than you imagine. And the vast majority of secular Jews are simply not ideological.

+1

I feel like LuL is pushing the standard Chareidi (false) narrative that going to the army is comparable to going off the derech. Honestly, when it comes to making choices in life, in my opinion for a Chareidi born and raised in Eretz Yisroel it’s a far easier choice to choose to stay in kollel than join the army. It’s not difficult at first, free healthcare, cheap housing, and you can get by on the stipend when you only have 0-1 kids. It’s later in life that gets difficult.

So, I’ll have to disagree with nearly this entire subject. While in the long run, in general it may be more difficult to live as a full-time kollel family, but for a Chareidi Yeshiva bachur/maidel to make that decision at 22 it’s almost frighteningly simple.

Lemme just end with a story.

A few years back a meshulach from Eretz Yisroel came to my house. He was American, and ran a kollel in a major Chareidi city. He talked about the difficulties and the cost and the Chedarim, etc. Then he brought up the government funding cuts and I had to interrupt him. I basically told him “Look, I don’t know what the government has been giving you before or what they pay you now. But I do know that it’s far far more than anyone in the US gets. Did you know that I have to pay over $20,000 just to send one son and one daughter to Yeshiva/Bais Yaakov pre-school? Please don’t appeal with that line to anyone else, as you’ll find very little sympathy.”

“if a kollel person is a zionist they are being a hypocrite”

Really? Why? (I’d better tell the post-hesder kollel people I know, as well as the friend whose husband is in a charedi hesder yeshiva…)

LUU- I think someone might have pointed this out on the other thread, but I think that you’re coming at this from a slightly different angle here. I am NOT going to make any statements on who’s right here- completely above my pay grade- but the fact is that for many charedi Israelis, kollel is the easy way out, in much the same way as that for many DL and chiloni Israelis, the army is the easy way out. Communal life is structured around it- communal expectations are focused on it- familial hopes are centered on it. A child is, through their upbringing, given a certain set of steps on how to succeed in the world, a bunch of implicit or explicit expectations which they are expected to adhere to. For a charedi boy, that expectation is to live the poverty-stricken life of a kollel yungerman, but at the same time to receive that communal praise and internal satisfaction. A DL boy is expected to serve in the army, which includes risk of serious physical and emotional injury, but in turn he will receive the praise and affection of the community for that. Either one switching to the other is at risk of serious alienation and abandonment, though we hope it wouldn’t happen. First, they lose the communal support which comes with the path that they grew up with- something pretty important to all of us. There may even be outright resentment- the soldiers who have been attacked in chassidishe shtibelach or the newly minted kollel yungerman who is blasted as a shirker- and even potential loss of family support. So in its own way, each is extremely hard, and to put it down to one or the other being empirically harder is virtually impossible. And, in general, charting a new path and making a decision to do something different and difficult is always going to be incredibly challenging. So while I don’t deny that much of what you say about the difficulties inherent in kollel life is true, there’s also that other angle, even without examining the positives or negatives in either lifestyle.

Joseph

Israel is a socialist country, the US is not.

Kupat Cholim is a much more comprehensive insurance than Medicaid

Its not the only one where Israel gives more than the US. the US is a very stingy country when it comes to government handouts

Funny, because the kollel people I know who live in the US say the reason they live there and not in EY is because they wouldn’t be able to manage in EY, much as they would love to be in EY! And the Kollel people I know in EY struggle much more than the ones in the US! In the US, you never have to worry about food, because you can live on food stamps if you qualify. In general, people in EY have way less money and have a much harder time financially. That’s why so many people from EY go to the US to collect money; you never find Americans collecting money in EY!

Regarding the government cuts, for many people, that was the money that was paying for food for their babies. The government literally took food from babies’ mouths, without giving anyone an opportunity to find another way to feed them!

Joseph: I’m “latching on to a half dozen programs” because those pretty much cover everything. Pell Grants only work for max maybe 5 years. Food Stamps pays for stuff, granted, but the Israeli equivalent takes you just as far. Stuff in the US is just more expensive. Nothing in the US pays the entire cost of childbirth. And those that pay anything are notoriously difficult to get. In Israel if you’re a citizen it’s automatic. You have full healthcare coverage.

“The bottom line is that full time learners in the US are financially better off and receive more government aid than their counterparts in Israel.”

Shtuyos. It only looks that way because there are less American yungerleit and more gevirim. They get far less government aid than in Israel, but are generally a little better off because rich people fund their kollels so they can pay a bit better.

“the Americans who learn instead of going to the army are not legally prohibited by the State from working in the future until age 27 – as Israel forces poverty by making it illegal for them to work.”

Irrelevant and narischkeit. We are talking about people who choose to learn full time after marriage. 27 is about 5-6 years after marriage, long before any major financial burdens set in. Kollel yungerleit in Israel aren’t poverty stricken because they can’t work until 27, they’re poverty stricken because they choose not to work even after 27.

The real Geverim in israel actually many times live in the US, because the tax laws are lower in the US. Mickey Arisol whose family owns Bank Hapoalim and owns the Miami Heat Basketball team and Carnival Cruise lines actually lives in Florida not Israel. His family was so weathy they got the israeli government to lower the taxes just for them as they threatend not to go back to israel and pay anything unless they were lowered

Joseph: Seriously, what is your problem? Literally every thing you post to CR is either about how difficult it is to learn in kollel in Eretz Yisroel (while oozing contempt for those Israelis that don’t) or just blatant contempt for anyone who holds a job. Is there any purpose to what you’re saying?