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My neice is a nice, aidele girl from an excellent family. She recently came back from seminary and my brother, who is a major accountant, got her a job in marketing at a client of his. This client does a lot of marketing through “trade shows” in Los Vegas and Orlando, and other cities like that. I know this scene because I used to be in sales, and the whole trade show is a bunch of people sharing samples and drinking and hanging out all night. There is a big convention in that industry coming up in a couple weeks.
My neice is not going to do that, I am sure, because she is a refined baalas middos. So it will end up that she is “hanging out” and doing nothing in the shmutz capitol of the world. When I heard that she was thinking of going, I immediately brought my brother a Mesilas Yeshorim and told him that she has to spend the whole time between now and the show learning if she wants to stand a chance of being protected from the tumah. Then, we were at their house for a shabbos meal and we started discussing it and I explained with all due force what a terrible influence it is to expose yourself to those elements. She got very upset and left the table. My brother was quiet after that, and now my wife told me that my sister in law said that I overreacted. What kind of yeridas hadoros are we in that people think it is perfectly fine to send a (formerly) teiereh yiddishe neshama to a place like Los Vegas? Am I wrong that it is a terrible idea? I know my brother is upset at me, but I almost feel that I should be more upset at him for allowing this to happen to someone in my family. What do you think?
Would you recommend a frum Yid go to Sedom on business?
Lots of Frum people go to trade shows in las Vegas, especially the CES show in january.
IMHO they should ask their Rav, and/or the hanahala of the school she went to. Also contact whatever kehila there is in Las Vegas (at least Chabad, I’m sure, and possibly more) and ask them how serious the dangers are and how she can be protected from them if she does go.
Agree, Veltz.
That last question you guessed, is really your question.
Your opening question is for your brother, your sister-in-law and your niece.
In most cases you have to respect your family members and allow them to make their own mistakes. If there is indeed a sakanah involved to guf or nefesh (I’m not in a position to comment on that) then you may need to get involved; but you have to tread very carefully. Passing out unsolicited advice, as in suggesting a learning program in Sifrei Mussar, might not be your best option.
(And just because I couldn’t resist asking, would the Mods care to correct the spelling of the famous city in Nevada?)
Its not your kid, so you have no say, And certainly the way you said it was wrong.
And if you suspected there would have been a negative reaction, for sure not you should have said nothing.
Whatever company she works for, is not sending her alone to represent the company. Who is she going with? Do her co-workers include other frum, yirei shamayim who could/would be able to keep tabs on her? These and other considerations though are for her and her parents, and her employer if frum to deal with, not you.
Agreed. Sin City is no place for a frum person.
To VM, the OP: you have nothing to worry about, as Los Vegas is fine. You are just confused, you are thinking of Las Vegas.
VM – you done good! Whether or not it was appreciated you were 100% right and they are making a huge spiritual mistake.
Veltz
I feel like you’re a friend of mine in need here of an outside perspective.
I think you were right in the matter of what your niece should not do.
But I don’t think that’s an issue right now anymore.
Your brothers family is probably insulted. They feel you were meddling in something that was none of your business. And worse you essentially accused them of poor judgement and incapable of handling their own lives. Maybe implying they were not as Frum as they should be. I don’t know.
I do know if it were me. After mulling over my hurt feelings for a while and reaffirming to myself from every angle how I was right, I would start thinking. Okay I’m right but they don’t think so, and they were hurt. What can I do now to restore Shalom among us. What can I do to make sure we stay close and loving.
I would probably go to them and say something like this:
Look. I really am sorry. You guys are certainly capable of making decisions like this. You sure don’t need MY advice. I apologize. It’s just that I love her so much and I was worried about her. I let my fears and emotions take control and maybe I meddled more than I should have. Whatever you all decide is certainly fine with me. It’s just that I know what goes on there and was worried how such a precious Neshamah could come out of there without being affected even a little.
I’m truly sorry and will try to be more trusting in your decisions in the future.
I didn’t say that well but that’s the gist.
Something like that.
That’s what I think you yourself maybe really want to do
Joseph
“Would you recommend a frum Yid go to Sedom on business?”
See the end of Sanhedrin regarding Eliezer’s trip(s?) to Sedom.
Granted he isnt technically a “Frum yid” but other Gemaras do indicate that he was a righetous person (albeit still from am hadome lechamor and an “arur”) who we learn halachos from
Your brothers family is probably insulted. They feel you were meddling in something that was none of your business.
The brother’s family is correct – it is none of VM’s business.
I get the feeling that the majority of people posting here have never been to Las Vegas and.have no clue. What exactly do you think goes on there that can’t be done in NY or LA?
a frum “couple” should not either be n Los Vegas, gambling doesnt belong in klal yisroel or in any jewish home. a person who gambles is exempt from doing lots of things that everyone else can do in yiddishkeit.
your mind & life go down as soon as a person starts to gamble
(even if you win or just started & not a full habit gambler)
There is a Casino in NYC, Should we all move out of NYC.
Atlantic City is not far from lakewood and Casino Gambling is coming to the Catskills right near the Bungalos. Should jews stop going to the Catskills?
They sell Lottery Tickets in Meah Shearim with frum Lottery tickets tickets at these Kiosks that sell that lottery tickets
perhaps jews should move out of jerusalem as well
Las Vegas is not just gambling. It’s a city.
its the landmark of the country & famous worldwide for gambling. when any person hears the name of the city the first thing in their mind is gambling. such a place yidden should not go to or live in
if a certain museum had an avoda zara in it but not to us just to a different religion but to us it was just a stone, we still wouldnt be allowed to go cause it wouyld be like supporting the avoda zara for every person that passed by in the museum & saw us looking at it. its basically like walking into a church or mosk although the person will just stand there & will not pray it is ALWAYS forbidden to walk into it
Gambling is legal in most parts of the country and Vegas realized this. There was no need to go to Vegas to gamble when you could gamble in Atlantic City, New Orleans or even NYC
They realized if they were going to survive they would have to expand the business and offer things like shopping and shows. Atlantic City did not see this and the main focus was gambling and AC is dying while Vegas is thriving. Only about 60% of the income in Vegas is from Gambling
And finally there is a KOLLEL in Las Vegas from Chofetz Chaim, I am sure their rabbanim felt differently that you did and they are big talmidi Chachamin there
Throwing in my prutah’s worth opinion…
Interfering with another family’s affairs is absolute arrogance.
Absolute disrespect of their thinking, sovereignty, free will and sheer rudeness.
To think one knows better than another is sheer audacity. Have your private affairs intruded and see whether you are equable with it too. What other people do or don’t do is done of anyone else’s business.
You can go to Las Vegas for a nice vacation without gambling. There are shuls, restaurants and sightseeing ( Hoover Dam, Red Rock Canyon and others ). The hotels themselves are something to see. Each has a theme and is built accordingly. For example, the towers of New York New York are built as NY skyscrapers ( I.e. Chrysler Building ) and out front there is NY harbor with a 1/3 scale statue of liberty and the Brooklyn bridge. And it has s Coney Island roller coaster
The discussion of LV as a makom tuma has its place. But in these days where we seek to atone for sinas chinam, why isn’t anyone reacting to the arrogant and unwarranted:
send a (****formerly****) teiereh yiddishe neshama
Cheshbon hanefesh is supposed t be reflective, not upon someone else.
May we be zoche to see nechamas Tzion and yerushalayim!
As a side note, Its not clear to me how old the girl is in question, However it does seem to me she is at least 18 and probsably older. She can make her own decisions and the parents have less control anyway
Since nobody liked my fabulous joke, I will tell you the truth about Las Vegas. I was there, once, about 10 years ago, for a non-frum friend’s child’s wedding (which ended in divorce, if that means anything).
There is nothing to do but gamble or see non-tznius entertainment – dirty comedians and women in skimpy costumes. My spouse and I went out for a walk one morning, and there were baseball-card sized flyers all over the sidewalk, advertising and picturing prostitutes. My spouse said of the cards: “This is some town. They have trading cards for prostitutes.” So why any frum Jew would go to Las Vegas (other than for a wedding of a non-frum friend) is beyond me.
To rebyidd23: Las Vegas is a city, not just gambling. And sewers are water, not just … well, never mind.
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