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No
Why’re you asking?
Ask your LOR
ZD, just curious – would you say that if the question were if you’re allowed to light a fire on Shabbos?
ZD, he IS the LOR.
For the uneducated (in UK geography at least), Crawley is a town in Sussex about halfway between London and Brighton, and very near Gatwick airport. It hardly registers as a speck on the Jewish map.
its not at all like lighting a fire on shabbos. The ben ish chai even says its muttar. It’s a big discussion on why it actually would be assur and at most its only derabanon.
We don’t pasken like the Ben Ish Chai.
We do keep d’rabbanans, you know.
But that does make it more reasonable to ask the question. As opposed to lighting a fire which no one would even have a thought to matir.
Permitted as long as its inside an eruv. Its just not shabbosdik
If you think vice versa then please tell me why and which of the 39 Melanoma is being broken by biking on Shabbos
If it counts, we allow our son to use his bicycle with training wheels in our backyard…
My point is, it’s not a straight out no in all scenarios, so ZD’s response is not completely off the mark. The main reasons, IIRC, are that one may mistakenly adjust or repair something not allowed, and that it’s Uvda DeChol.
If you think vice versa then please tell me why and which of the 39 Melanoma is being broken by biking on Shabbos
Which of the 39 melachos is muktzeh? Which of the 39 melachos is carrying in a place where the eruv is down? Which of the 39 melachos is using an umbrella?
The answer to all of these is none, but there are things which are assur on Shabbos which are not one of the 39 melachos.
I was under the impression that it was well known that riding a bike on Shabbos has been accepted as assur, whether because of uvdin d’chol or a gezeirah, as Mammele said.
I guess I was wrong, and some people really don’t know.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19979&st=&pgnum=290&hilite=
While others had answered, I had known about some Sephardim allowing it (I didnt know which ones) and I knew that it might be permitted in an Eruv.
We might not Posken like the Ben Ish CHai, but if you are a Sephard you might so its not so simple
It’s also not in the spirit of Shabbos (like getting in a boat).
Am I allowed to light a fire on Shabbos?
ZD, ?? ????? quotes the ?? ??? ?? but concludes ????.
My link above is from ?’ ?? ???? ??? ????.
Sefardim also shouldn’t ride bikes on Shabbos, AFAIK.
Daas Yochid: With respect to your broad knowledge but you are wrong about bicycles. It is certainly not d’oirasa, nor is it a ‘derabbonon”. At best, it may be a “cheshas’ that if the chain breaks, one would fix it-hence much more akin to a “klei zemer’ than anything else. Certainly in Europe, children did use bicycles in their own backyard. Even your comments about mukzha are incorrect. To hold an umbrella on Shabbos is not ossur.
Daas Yochid: I checked your source in Hebrew books and Rav Ben Shaul explicitly says that riding a tricycle for children is muttar. Same with roller skates. Muttar.
I know that. The discussion is about bicycles, which he says are assur.
Umbrella: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14336&st=&pgnum=158&hilite=
Which of the 39 is muktzeh? One of the reasons is related to ?????, but it is not actually ????? or any of the other 38.
in todays day it would really depend on what kind of bike. are we talking about a real bike, tricycle or even a plastic little tikes bike for a baby
Daas Yochid: I am sure you saw the “hagoho” where he writes that, min hadin, there would be no reason to prohibit riding a bicycle at all but because some people were “noheg” no to do it, we follow their example. This “hanhogo” obligates adults but I clearly know that children were allowed on small bicycles in their own yards.
Perhaps the types of bikes you saw weren’t included in the minhag, or perhaps they were wrong to allow it.
Either way, riding an ordinary bicycle, as per the OP’s question, was definitely accepted as assur.
MA, the question seemed to me to be about a regular bike, which is assur to ride even though it’s not one of the 39 melachos.
Daas Yochid: I agree that-today- it is accepted that adults do not use bicycles, but it is much more akin to a “gezeira” like “klai zemer”, than an explicit issur.
As far as muktzah, I only commented about umbrellas-which I assume you maintain are muktzah, not about whether muktzah was a “melocho”.
I do realize that ,today, people do not use umbrellas ,or parasols for that matter, due to the question of “ohel. However, there were Poskim that allowed umbrellas in the nineteenth century and I heard-admittedly from hearsay-that in towns in Hungary, there were OPEN umbrellas in the shul, to use if it rained. As they were already open, there was no question of making an “ohel” I will find the sources for you tomorrow IYH.
The Ben ish Hai allowed it, and an acquaintance of mine told me that in his youth in Ntanya the Sepharadim rode bicycles to shul on Shabbat. However, Rav Mordechai Eliahu, who was a great-nephew of his, said that he was talking about a certain type of bicycle that was driven by an Arab – and even on that he rescinded his heter. I also heard that Rav Chaim Zimmerman was very upset with the reason for prohibiting it (maybe the chain will break and one will come to fix it) because there is no power to make new gezerot. However, today it is prohibited either because of that reason or uvda d’chol or minhag Yisrael. Regarding a tricycle, Shemirat Shabbat k’Chilkata (16,17) explicitly states that it is permitted in the home or even outside where there is an eruv as it is a toy. However, he says that it is a good idea to remove the bell.
DY: I do know of some contemporary Poskim who quietly allow it. It is very unclear what the Issur is and where it came from. As such, there are Poskim who are Meikel for even the smallest of reasons.
ROB, I meant the overall issur muktzeh itself, and the issur of using an umbrella (which even if ohel would be a d’rabbanon, not an av melacha or toldah), which according to the Ch”I is not ohel, but zilzul Shabbos.
Sam, how could one “quietly” allow an activity which is done outside?
Also ??? ?????? quotes ???? ???? about someone who was ????:
???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??: ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?’ ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????, ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ????
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14506&st=&pgnum=155
DY, I do not understand what “chadash assur min haTorah” has to do with it. I also do not understand the problem with the rider’s body moving. This is also true of walking. As for the Shailat Yaakov, he is talking about a place where there is no eruv. The problem of possibly going outside the techum also might not apply today as the area of continuous houses is enormous.
Sam, how could one “quietly” allow an activity which is done outside?
I heard of a case where someones parent was in the hospital (Or something similar I forogot exactly what it was) quite sick and the hospital would not allow the person to stay overnight and there was no hotel nearby nor any jewish communty nearby so the person asked if they could ride a bicycle to the health care facility and they were allowed
Daas Yochid: Well, now you have perplexed me. What does “zilzul Shabbos” mean? I have never heard that this is the reason for not using an umbrella. Always because of “ohel” although it is at best miderabbonon, as we don’t say “ohel” by kelim.
Daas Yochid: the source to allow using an umbrella is from the “Tiferes Yisroel” In his perush “kilkeles hashaboos”. I found this written in “Otzar Dinim uminhagim” by Eisenstein. I will try to find the place in “kilkeles hashaboos” itself.
I find it hard to believe that the Rov of a community would ask a question in the “Coffee Room” and not to the Rosh Yeshiva who granted him SMICHA!
If you build a tent it’s boneh, unambiguously one of the 39. I don’t see why umbrellas are in question. They’re either assur because they’re comparable to ohel, or because so many people hold they’re comparable to ohel that you assur them for another reason like “zilzul shabbos” even though you don’t think they’re ohel.
Bikes are assur. I don’t fully understand why, but I agree with DY that a “no” is a more appropriate answer than “ask your LOR.”
Mash. Agent, that is a tired old vacuous argument– “which of the 39 Melachos is being broken?”
Surely someone who considers himself an agent of one so great, is aware that there are entire categories of actions that are prohibited on Shabbos that do not fall under any of the 39 Melachos.
(For starters, even a Bais Yakov graduate who cannot back herself up with Rishonim and Achronim, can quote the relevant passuk in Yeshaya. You might even say it yourself when you make Kiddush.)
The truth is that there is no explicit issur, even derabbanan, for either umbrellas or bicycles if you are in an eruv (or if it is Yom Tov). I challenge anyone to prove otherwise, stating which deoraita or derabbanan is violated. It is just that in most communities we don’t use either. That isn’t a problem, either; we just should be honest about things.
What do you mean, “explicit”?
‘What do you mean, “explicit”?’
No specific source in Chazal or Rishonim that would make them asur.
Not to harp on the bicylcles, but when you start implicitly banning stuff on shabbos, it is a slipperly slope. You can ban something that is permitted and someone finds out that you are calling a chumra a Halacha, they wont belive you on anything you might say.
I have heard many things called “Ovda D’chol” that are really pushing the boundaries. According to some reading Shakespeare is Uvda D’chol or talking about the Baseball game .
Acharonim don’t count?
Umbrella:
??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????
– ???? ??? ??”? ?”?
???? ?”? ????? ??????”? ??? ???????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???
– ???”? ??”? ??”? ???
Bicycle:
???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????
– ??”? ??? ????? ?’ ?”? ???? ?
??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????
– ??”? ??? ?????? ?’ ?’ ??’ ?”?
When you forbid the permitted eventually the forbidden will be permitted.
Charlie and ZD, the poskim disagree with you and think allowing these things is the slippery slope.
I know people who will not speak english on Shabbos because its Uvda D’chol. They will only speak in Hebrew on Shabbos
“Acharonim don’t count?”
No. They can’t create new halachah post-Shulchan Aruch/Rema.
So you overrule them?? If you think the Chazon Ish et al didn’t know what they were and were not allowed to do, you’re an arrogant mechutzef.
Uvda D’chol is a legitimate thing, what I am discussing is what are the limits. Its one thing to say riding a Biclycle or an umbrella is Uvda D’chol its quote another to say you cant speak english or talk about the baseball game (Baseball game is a metaphor for any non “Shabbosdick” topic)
How, then, does Mr. Weiss from HIR create new halachas?
Uvda D’chol is a legitimate thing, what I am discussing is what are the limits.
Thank you for clarifying. We are discussing forms of uvda d’chol which are mentioned by the gedolei haposkim.
1. Nobody after Chazal, or perhaps the Geonim,can create a new halacha for all of Am Yisrael. However, the mara d’atra can create a takkana for his community. Moreover, obligatory minahim can spring up from the people. The classic examples are not eating kitniyot (which some Rishonim opposed) or gebruchts (which the Gra strongly opposed) during Pesach.
2. The Shela HaKadosh mentions that some had a minhag to only speak Hebrew on Shabbat. However, it never caught on. Perhaps because people’s conversational Hebrew was not good.
3. Regarding umbrellas, according to the Chatam Sofer (Responsa OC 72 – http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14663&st=&pgnum=54) it is not even an isur d’rabbanan. The Biur Halacha (315,7 d”h tefach) says:
“????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??”? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?????”.
The Chazon Ish says that it is tikkun man and avsha milta (which I do not understand as that generally refers to noise) and adds that even in our time there is the power to make decrees for all of Am Yisrael (which is also very puzzling as there has no been a Sanhedrin for over 1,500 years).
However, the universal minahg is not to use it on Shabbat or Yom Tov (interestingly, certain types of hats which almost definitely have the din of tents are allowed because of minhag – Mishna Berura 301,151-152).
uvda d’chol can sometimes be a vague issue. But if you never apply it, then you’ll end up watching TV,listening to the radio, ect on shabbos.(even though the rishonim/chazal didn’t explicitly assur them and they are items post-Shulchan Aruch/Rema)
“does Mr. Weiss from HIR create new halachas?”
No.
Don’t bother getting worked up. There’s no point in entertaining the opinions of a guy who thinks the hats worn by all gadolim are ohel/beged-isha, but does not think umbrellas are ohel contrary to the opinion of just about everyone (even probably Avi Weiss).
Bicycles did not exist at the time of the Shulchan Aruch. If people are really using the argument “the S”A didn’t know about it yet, so it must be mutar” then the proper thread is this one:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lets-make-yct-teshuvas-by-popa
My understanding from my rebbi is as follows:
Riding a bicycle is uvda d’chol according to many poskim. The reason it is uvda d’chol is because the typical use of bicycle involves occasional melocha (fixing the chain) or issur (going out of the techum). Activities which can be done without melocha or issue but are typically done in ways that include melocha or issur are forbidden on Shabbos as uvda d’chol. This is not a new gezeira but simply the application of parameters of uvdin d’chol.
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