Is anti-Zionism the sin of the spies?

I don’t think the “either or comment” at the end warrants leaving this as a legitimate comment.

I wonder why allegedly Torah observant people such as Avi K who consider the Zionist government a part of ?????? ??????, completely ignore the posek of ??? ???? ????. The Israeli government proudly presents to the world that they are one of the “pinkest” nations ( Theydon’t mean pink like communist). They promote their toeiva pride and have multiple parades and fests, some which they call the largest in the world. And Thait “??????” is just some of the immoral/amoral activities that the Zionist government prides itself on.

catch yourself, living in Hashem’s embrace is akin to living in your mother’s home and being cared for regarding room and board. If you cannot tell the difference between loving care, and humiliatingly filing for, accepting and living on food stamps than I fear your view of Hashem’s love for us may be somewhat skewed.

Medinas israel is a manifestation of eschalta de’geula that comes from Yad Hashem. The medina has a government which is anti-Torah. Too many of the Jews living in Israel are against Torah living. But the State of Israel is holy; the government toig nisht.

@TheProf1: There is certainly nothing holy about the State of Israel. The land of Eretz Yisroel has ?????, not the government.

29 – In case you haven’t noticed, we are in Galus. We do ***not*** currently enjoy “living in Hashem’s embrace,” and I made no mention of such. In His concern and care, however, He continues to provide for us, albeit indirectly. I think this is quite obviously part of the ????? ???? of Galus.

your answer has nothing to do with this conversation. The comparison was made that those who wanted to continue in Hashem’s embrace and did not want to enter E”Y and work, were like those who are on government programs in order to stay in learning. That comparison is disgusting. the fact that we are no longer in Hashem’s embrace in that way is irrelevant. The problem was the analogy.

-29, duly impressed!!! Since when do Moderator wax on the sublime?!?

On the contrary, the spies thought that Eretz Yisrael could only be conquered by having a superior military (they probably favored a policy of focusing national spending on the military and taking people away from learning Torah to play soldier). Yehoshua trusted that Ha-Shem would hand over Eretz Yisrael to us with minimal effort on our part – no need to replace Torah and Mitsvos with military training. The spies lacked faith that Ha-SHem would deliver Eretz Yisrael to us in spite of military inability to do so by force.

Of course, the zionists aren’t so dumb. They know that Ha-Shem never told to conquer Eretz Yisrael from the Yishmaelim, and by many shitahs told us not to start the war and seize the government from the goyim, and since the zionist war isn’t a mitsvah they can expect no help from Ha-Shem, and are forced to rely on their own efforts.

29, DY – I think it is quite obvious that the OP did not mean the comparison in a favorable way; this was the intention of the second paragraph of my first post in this thread.

Nevertheless, I think that he (albeit unintentionally and indirectly, even ironically) made a good point about one possible reason that Hashem allows social safety net programs to exist.

I saw nothing in the OP about “Hashem’s embrace,” and, at the risk of sounding repetitive, I think that he is wrong to compare ?? ????? ????? to government programs. My point was simply that the comparison was not inaccurate, just inverse. It may not be wrong to compare government programs to ?? ????? ????? in the sense that they may be the way in which He chooses to provide for many of ????? ??? ????? today.

The greatest Torah sages of the past century and beyond have blasted Zionism for the idolatry and heresy that it proudly is.

Rabbi Teichtal’s book was written during very desperate times and his introduction in any event states not to rely on it as a support for any -ism.

We’ve gone over this way too many times: the State is idolatry and heresy and a colossal chilul Hashem, not to mention communist-textbook-case propaganda and identity theft of the Jewish nation.

The gedolim were and are quite clear about the cataclysmic disaster for the Jewish people that was Zionism.

The Rambam who the MO love so much brought down the oaths in Iggeres Teiman. The Satmar Rav answers all the nonsense that Zionists try to bring up in a desperate attempt to hold on to their idols. Might as well just give it up.

Furthermore, not there entire State of Israel is in Eretz Yisroel. Eilat, Israel

is in chutz l’aaretz. And not the entire Eretz Yisroel is in the State of Israel. Southern Lebanon and parts of Jordan are in Eretz Yisroel.

Is Avi outraged and denounces anyone who speaks ill of the safety conditions of living in southern Lebanon or western Jordan as being from the meraglim? Are those that speak ill of the governments of southern Lebanon or western Jordan, Eretz Yisroel, meraglim too?

Well, Avi k does not need my help as he is learned enough and erudite to defend his views but I thought I’d give him a hand. The religious Zionists are often accused of being blind to the failings of medinat israel but the blindness is more acute and more complete with the opponents of the medinah.

Neutiquam has a long entry that is only remarkable in its fallacies and misrepresentations. To write that the state’s halachic standards are not enough for any frum jew is a ridiculous argument and a false one. Since time immemorial, there have always been less than ideal regimes in eretz yisroel. Did that make the frum jews to leave and disavow the state? No, they tried to improve it by example and by exhortations. Never did they turn their back on other jews. And- to add insult to injury- the writer insults every jew who is not perfect. Keeping shabbos does not diminish that person even if he transgresses by eating pork r’l. More ridiculously, comparing that behavior to the Israeli government is just plain fantasy. Eretz yisroel is not-yet- a fully religious state but it is getting there. You may not have noticed but it has been pointed out that-for the first time- all three branches of the security apparatus in israel are shomre shabbos. Many other parts of the Israeli bureaucracies have been occupied by frum jews. That is a major achievement and things will continue to improve. Until the third bais hamikdosh, that will come down intact from the heavens, nothing can be built in one moment. It is indeed “aschalte de geulah” and only the obtuse refuse to see it in their blindness.

To write that the state’s halachic standards are not enough for any frum jew is a ridiculous argument and a false one.

ROB: Do you think the halachic standards of the State are enough for any frum Jew?

Avi you continue to try defending the point you were trying to make with the disrespectful analogy. I will continue to answer that you have no business degrading Hashem in your quest to make this point. Sidestepping doesn’t make it go away.

We have a guest in our home who is a bit off. When we mentioned a huge gadol Hador he said, “I know him, we used to steal hubcaps together in high school”. Would the fact that he is lacking understanding make this comment any less disrespectful? No. Would the fact that he didn’t understand the chashivus of a gadol make it any less disrespectful? No. I don’t care what you meant, or think you meant, or what you seem to think you know about what Hashem meant. Don’t disrespect Him, and don’t compare his wonders and unfaltering, unmitigated and complete care and support of the Jews in the midbar to a govt program.

The Gra is quoted by his talmid Rabbi Hillel Rivlin (“Kol HaTor”) as sayingthat just before Mashiach comes this sin will infect those who hold on to the Troah. Rav Teichtal says (“Em haBanim Semeicha”) that opposition to our return to EY is this sin.

So basically, you have so much emunas chachamim that if the talmid of the gra said it will happen several hundred years ago, then it must be what is happening now.

Very nice.

Today’s chachamim disagree. How about some emunas chachamim on dem apples?

AviK:

Okay, I tried to make sense of that, I really did, but it doesn’t seem to answer any of my above points. You seem to make a distinction between the aspects of the State I picked out, and the State as a whole, even though this makes no material difference to my point, as far as rebuttals are concerned. So I’ll clarify once again, even though I’m sure you understood me perfectly the first time. You have stated that the State, as an entity, and the physical land of Eretz Yisroel are one and the same. Kindly explain this notion, rather than stating it as fact, and please try to be direct.

And you, once again, seem to ignore the question of halacha when posed directly. And this is convenient, as to support your case that the State is part and parcel of the land of Eretz Yisroel, for as of yet unexplained reasons, the State in question would at least have to be a State that abides by the Torah (Although, even if it did, perfectly, it would not legitimise it, but that’s an argument for another time, I’d like to avoid getting sidetracked). But it clearly, blatantly and obviously doesn’t. That undermines your entire argument, which is why you try to focus on minutiae and repeatedly avoid the wider picture. So kindly answer the question that has been posed to you by multiple posters, multiple times:

How can you claim that the State of Israel adheres to Halacha when this is clearly not the case? Please explain. And furthermore, do you truly believe it does? Answer Yes or No, and please show your working if you so choose.

Simcha, which poskim ever paskened that a) yishuv today is doche pikuach nefesh and that b) any of Israel’s wars are a milchemes mitzvah? Rabbi Kook did not pasken that, so who are the great rabbis that took it on their shoulders to rule that multitudes of Jewish lives may be sacrificed in the name of gaining or maintaining control of the land?

Specific names, please.

Avi, I am being moche your history of being motzi shem ra on the Lebanese Republic and on the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, both of which are sovereigns over Eretz Yisroel. Furthermore, you are part of the meraglim and an ingrate for insisting that it is unsafe for Yidden today to do the great mitzvah of yishuv haaretz in Lebanon, Eretz Yisroel or in Jordan, Eretz Yisroel. Your not insisting Yidden around the world today move to the Eretz Yisroel’dik portions of Lebanon and Jordan, much as moving to the Eretz Yisroel’dik portions of the zionist entity, demonstrates your lack of bitochon and violation of the fulfillment of yishuv haaretz.

You should be the first to rectify this sin by immediately moving to Southern Lebanon.

Joseph- I do not know the sugya that well and I certainly don’t have sources for you. But, I do not know of too many poskim that rule a) it is assur to live in Eretz Yisroel today because it’s more dangerous than the USA, b) it is assur for a soldier to serve in Tzahal because he puts his life at risk to defend the borders of Medinas Yisroel and its inhabitants (though there may be other reasons why serving in Tzahal is problematic), or c) that the War of Independence and the Six Day War were fought be’issur because Jewish lives were at risk.

Maybe there are a few opinions that say those things and I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re able to quote them, but that doesn’t seem to be the opinion of the Dati LeUmi Gedolim and Poskim, and I don’t think it is the opinion of many Charedi Gedolim and Poskim.

How graciously patronizing. You continue to defend your use of a metaphor as if I don’t have what it takes to understand the lack of literality. The problem, dear sir, is comparing Hashem to a czar or dictator instead of to a king and responding with, “what’s wrong with that analogy, they’re both leaders?”

Yes, this closes the subject because you seem to be either unable or unwilling to see the degradation in your words and I am unable and unwilling to let them stand.

I’ve answered your point about the State partially keeping halacha on the other thread, but for the sake of consistency will post it here too.

There is a clear distinction between a person who occasionally sins and the failure of the State to adhere to halacha fully. Firstly, with regard to virtually all religious Jews, we try to keep the rules, and occasionally fail. These failings do not define us, as long as we acknowledge they are failings and endeavour not to repeat them. Were a person to say that he chooses not to keep certain halachos due to ideological reasons, then that person cannot be considered religious.

For a State, however, it’s views are as defined in it’s constitution, will of the people, and governance. For a State to have a law on it’s statute books promoting toeiva, and you know perfectly well what I’m referring to, is to diverge from the Torah entirely. A State cannot claim to have failed momentarily as a person might. It’s guiding ideals must be in the right place, and they clearly aren’t.

Don’t look at me. I didn’t even know there were two threads.

Perhaps not that particular point, but it does fall under the same banner, and it would probably be less confusing if it was all on the other thread. And anyway, this thread is meant to be about the issur of insulting E”Y, and that’s barely been mentioned, it’s all basically about Zionism, just with a title dreamed up by a zionist.

“The boundaries of the State of Israel are not clear. “

Typical that the radical liberal would support the position of the BDS reshoim.