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Do rebbeim and mechanchim have to get a college degree?
Please list some Yeshivish job options (little to no college, short hours, tznius environment)
Oxford.
No college.
Airplane pilot, baker, diamond merchant, mail carrier, insurance claims adjuster, salesman, mechanic, bus driver, factory supervisor, power plant operator, etc.
“Airplane pilot”
While anyone can pay for flying lessons and learn to fly private planes, to become a commercial pilot requires extensive training in aeronautical engineering that can only be obtained by taking college courses. Most commercial pilots in the US served in the US military and many continue to fly in Reserve or National Guard units.
The Labor Department’s Occupational Outlook Handbook is now online. You can search for jobs that don’t require advanced education along with the typical entry level salary for those jobs and the forecast for job growth. Most job categories that don’t require at least some college either don’t pay well or are projected to become less common in the future, or both.
I know plenty business men who never went to college who are making a nice parnossah. Parnossah is from Hashem and it is set on Rosh Hashana for the year.
I know plenty of people who never went to college, They have trouble supporting their families and if it wasnt for tzdekah and government programs they would probably starve on the street
Please list some Yeshivish job options (little to no college, short hours, tznius environment)
I agree with “The Queen”. If you really have Bitachon, then Hashem will provide even if you don’t work at all, and sit and learn all day. If He doesn’t, that is a Chisaron in you, and you need to work on your Bitachon.
What makes these criteria “Yeshivish”?
Software development
The Queen, so why does the Gemorah tell a father to teach his son a trade?
You can teach/learn a trade without college.
Please people, not another thread on this topic. Bitochon is a nearly impossible sugya to understand.
short hours? where does that fit in? you want to go into a job untrained, work less hours and make a parnassa, or is this just about hishtadlus?
i think the best job a man can have besides learning is staying home with the kids if the wife works. that’s a heilig, tznius environment and there’s no commute.
Please people, not another thread on this topic. Bitochon is a nearly impossible sugya to understand.
And intrinsic to the question asked. This is as good of a spot as any to discuss it, if the OP wants a real answer.
You can teach/learn a trade without college.
You can also go to Touro which avoids all of the “college” problems, except that it is a college (and therefore by definition unacceptable to the Lakewood/BMG crowd, while spending more time and effort learning a trade that requires more time would be muttar).
“Do rebbeim and mechanchim have to get a college degree?”
What is your point here? Is a degree for parnassa, or is it for general knowledge or to relate to students (like a degree in education or child psych) or …?
“Please list some Yeshivish job options (little to no college, short hours, tznius environment) “
Back to my first question. What is the tachlis? Parnasa or to enhance teaching? In either case it depends on the need of the situation. That you will have to evaluate with your Rebbe and family.
The curriculum for a BA is pure shtisim. Saying this from personal experience.
The curriculum for a BA is pure shtisim. Saying this from personal experience.
As someone with 2 BA’s , It is very unhelpful when people say that and then people cannot get decent jobs.
Queen: You weren’t born into a chasidish family?
As someone with one BA, I repeat, most of the curriculum was garbage. Sorry it is the simple truth.
@ The Queen
what school you go to can greatly influence the value of the BA.
Also do you work professionally?
Most professional jobs are only available to those with degrees.
The curriculum for a BA is pure shtisim. Saying this from personal experience.
Agree with this fully (once again). BA just stands for a Bachelor of Arts, which could mean you have a degree in garbage collection, instead of something useful like STEM.
They give BA for science and Math. I have a BA in a Science
“As someone with 2 BA’s , It is very unhelpful when people say that and then people cannot get decent jobs.”
They can’t get decent jobs with a BA either.
So I suppose you would say wasting hours upon hours learning secular studies, MUCH of which is flat out apikorsus and biased while taking out student loans and putting yourself in debt or paying a lot of money to learn such studies is better than saving your money and time?
I would say at least doing nothing so you have free time to learn Torah or a trade or skill is better than wasting your money and time getting a BA degree that wont lead to a good job anyway.
Unless you get it in liberal arts, the phrase “a BA” means nothing. It depends on what you major in.
So I suppose you would say wasting hours upon hours learning secular studies, MUCH of which is flat out apikorsus and biased while taking out student loans and putting your self in debt or paying a lot of money to learn such studies is better than saving your money and time?
Public Universities Like CUNY do not require loans, they are quite cheap. You can minimize Apikorsus by taking things like Math, Accounting and English (proper english writing is very important)
If you have a plan to be lets say a dentist, and you need a BA to get into dental school, then OK get your BA. Going to school just for a BA so you can feel that you got a better education? Stupid waste of time.
Many jobs will not grant you an interview without the degree, its very hard to get your foot in the door without it
“Public Universities Like CUNY do not require loans, they are quite cheap. You can minimize Apikorsus by taking things like Math, Accounting and English”
Do you honestly think the people reading this wondering to get some BA degree are thinking about becoming a math professor at Harvard? There is no point in getting a BA in english or math unless you have a specific career path or enjoy supporting a family on $20 an hour after you graduate. Cuny colleges still cost thousands of dollars per semester and take up all your time you could be using more productively.
Im not saying don’t become a doctor, dentist or engineer. But these studies require hard math and science courses for many years and usually require taking out student loans unless you have very wealthy parents. As for law, all the young lawyers I know hate their jobs with a passion. And many accountants also hate their jobs or find them extremely boring.
So unless you have an aptitude for the high level math and science courses and plan on going to grad school…. stopping at a BA or taking the social science and humility courses to educate yourself indeed is a stupid waist of time.
“Many jobs will not grant you an interview without the degree, its very hard to get your foot in the door without it”
Those jobs are usually low paying and that mindset is changing more and more anyway.
I would dare to say for most poeple unless you are willing to go to grad school and take hard math and science courses with a specific career goal dont go to college at all.
An Actuary is a good paying job that requires a Degree in Math and it pays about $100,000 a year
CUNY costs $5500 a year, thats less than yeshiva tution
“An Actuary is a good paying job that requires a Degree in Math”
Thats misleading. You need much more than a BA math degree. After you graduate you have to take very difficult exams with advanced math. It can take 6-10 years to finish all the exams. You have to have a very high aptitude for intense math course and have a specific career goal. That is very different than saying get a 4 year BA in English or Math at a CUNY school because it can “open a door”.
Your time can be better spent doing other things than opening doors with a 4 year CUNY BA degree.
Me’od ME’OD hevei sh’fal ruach.
The double lashon indicates the extreme importance of attaining this Middah.
So I would say the ‘humility courses’ newbee declares a waste of time, are in fact very beneficial. Regardless of what career one has in mind.
So that $22,000 and 4 years of your life wasted to get that BA in Philosophy.
My BA or BS was very helpful. While some of the electives were ridiculous, some were helpful. The mandatory courses were extremely necessary and useful. It depends on what you get a BA in. Get it for something useful.
BTW, an accountant only needs a BA.
lol typo, humanity courses.
But one can also call them humility courses I suppose because after you graduate with a humanities major you are certain to learn what humility truly is when using said degree as wall decoration in your homeless shelter.
“An Actuary is a good paying job that requires a Degree in Math”
I know actuaries who did not go to college. The self studied and passed the exams.
Further, those who do go to college to get their degree in math in hopes of becoming an actuary do not go the BA route.
As many can attest, having a BA in English does very little in guaranteeing competent writing skills.
“Public Universities Like CUNY do not require loans, they are quite cheap. You can minimize Apikorsus by taking things like Math, Accounting and English (proper english writing is very important)”(sic).
Al CUNY colleges offering BA degrees require core courses, many of which are rife with apikorsus.
$22,000 sadly is more than most Rebbes or Morah’s get
Full time (full morning or afternoon) rebbeim and morahs? More than that (rebbeim by a long shot; morahs, depends on the neighborhood and her experience).
The pay for Rebbes and Morahs is very low and those jobs are hard to get as there are many applicants for few jobs. And even if you get the Job , many times they dont even pay on time 🙁
“I know actuaries who did not go to college. The self studied and passed the exams.”
Is there any way to learn Architecture and pass an exam with just a BA, and no further college?
ZD, I agree with all of that, I’m just saying that your numbers are still too low, especially for rebbeim.
The $22,000 was also too low for a BA in Philosophy (I dont know anyone who actually got a degree in Philosophy nor do I advocate getting a degree in Philosophy , Lingustics or a bunch of other useless degrees)
People who get BA degrees in the humanities dont usually go into those fields and are just trying to get into a regular job that requires a BA for entry level positions
One element seems to have eluded the comments on this post. Before asking about the jobs out there, the real first question should be about the individual. What sets of skills and potential exist? Next question should be what fields does this individual like? Sforim refer to the parnosoh that is declared on Rosh Hashana as dependent on the individual being a recipient. It is completely conceivable that someone was given an allotment on Rosh Hashana but never received it. Reasons – there were enough aveiros to impede the flow of shefa from HKB”H, the absence of hishtadlus, etc. The Torah is replete with havtochos that required a special step of a “bris” or a “shevu’ah” in order that they become fulfilled (see Ramban on bris bein habesorim). Just because someone merits a generous kitzvah of parnosoh does not guarantee that it occurs. All we are certain of is that the individual will not receive what was not set into place on Rosh Hashana.
We need to begin the job seeking process by looking for something that is relevant to the individual. One would not look to give a cripple a job loading trucks or playing basketball. Granted, sometimes, someone is stuck settling for something that is far from first choice. But that is where to begin the process.
It is legendary that our Torah world guides anyone that knows how to sit to stay in kollel, with the hopes of bitachon that some miracle will occur and grant the untrained and unskilled with positions that earn handsome wages. Sorry, but such thinking is not more than pure fantasy. Lotteries have better odds. It is strongly based on hishtadlus, but this requires saichel to direct the job seeker to careers that make sense for him.
“BTW, an accountant only needs a BA.”
In NY, to become a CPA, a candidate must have 150 credits. And it must include certain specific courses.
I’m still in yeshiva/college so I don’t claim to be an expert on the matter, but here is my two cents:
in the more yeshivish circles a rebbe does not need a degree (though you’d be suprised how helpful a bachelors or masters in education, psychology, or even math can be). If you want a job in a less yeshivish school system then it becomes more of a necessity.
In terms of the short hours requirement, forgive me if I’m cynical. The Torah says bizeas apecha tochal lechem. For 99% of the world this curse has held true. Some sweat and make millions, some sweat and make next to nothing. But they all sweat (no matter how many or few degrees they have). If there was a way to make a living by only working half a day, everyone would do it. The only way to not work much is to be supported or come up with some new idea (product, business model, new type of job) that is a success. In other words, if you want to live above the system, you have to work and think above the system.) Therefore, a yeshivish job doesn’t necassarily have short hours, just maybe not 90 hours a week.
The important thing to have in mind is to have bitachon that Hashem is looking out for you and that assuming you put in the proper hishtadlus (whatever that is for you), Hashem will help you get to where you need to be.
In terms of jobs that may be more conducive to a Torah lifestyle some are:
actuary
accountant
computer programmer
pathologist
(Parenthetically, judging by your questions (and previous threads) the life trajectory of yeshivish men is somewhat unfamiliar to you. I would highly reccomend that you speak to actual people as well before coming to a desicion.)
Pathologist?
You do know that’s a kind of doctor where you look at dead people, dead or diseased body parts, and/or blood and stool tests all day, right?
If someone habitually falsely claims to be that type of doctor, does that mean he’s a pathological liar?
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