An unusual Jewish Genetics story

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  • #617296
    lesschumras
    Participant

    I heard this story from Rabbi Brander at Y

    He had invited a family for Shabbos lunch that was far removed from Yiddishkeit and had almost no Jewish knowledge. The wife mentioned that her husband had to very strong personal traits: 1. h was scrupulously honest in business; 2. he refused to speak loshon hora ( she didn’t use the word ) or allow it to be spoken in his presence. Every Friday night they went out to dinner with her parents and she always had to remind them no to speak it.

    Towards the end of the meal the husband mentioned to Rabbi Brander that his great great grandfather also was a rabbi. He new nothing about him other than his name, the Chafetz Chaim

    #1141298
    akuperma
    Participant

    I doubt it has anything to do with genetics.

    If frumkeit or midos were a function of genetics (similar to whether one is left handed, or whether one is bald), what zechus would it be to do mitsvos – since if behavior is a matter of DNA rather “free will”, tsadikkim and reshai’im have no choice but to be what they are.

    #1141299
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Rabbi Chafetz Chaim had special genes.

    #1141300
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Akuperma, don’t take genetics literally.

    #1141301
    Geordie613
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim was still alive 85 years ago. I didn’t know any of his children were so not frum that this great/great/grandchild would have almost no Jewish knowledge.

    Are you sure these are the facts?

    #1141302
    MRS PLONY
    Participant

    I agree with geordie613. It sounds very unlikely.

    #1141303
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim was still alive 85 years ago. I didn’t know any of his children were so not frum that this great/great/grandchild would have almost no Jewish knowledge.

    I heard a story that 2 grandchildren of the chofetz Chaim met sometime after the war one was male and the other female. it seems the female went off the derech and the male asked the female to relate a story of their grandfather. The woman said, I asked Zaide why he insists on living such a backward lifestyle and doesnt become modern and I forget what he said, but it was something about what modern life brings that is negative

    The reason I mention this is because it is very possible the Chofetz Chaim has non-relgious decendents. I also heard he had a non-religous son

    #1141304
    The Queen
    Participant

    I remember learning that if a person works hard on a certain middah than it will be inherited by his/her children. Meaning the children will have the middah naturally without having to work hard for it. I don’t know the source. Other than I heard it in high school many years ago. Anyone heard of this or know a source?

    #1141306

    nisht – if you know I’ll probably delete it, what’s the point? (just curious really)

    #1141307
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I see he stuff that goes through from certain posters.

    My posts are way less offensive. And certainly do not besmirch Whole swaths of Yidden. Apparently, those can get posted.

    #1141308

    That’s an interesting observation. I do notice some sweeping besmirching comments, more from “your camp” than his, but I believe those are put through to facilitate discussions from both sides. When they are specifically aimed to humiliate/mock/ridicule only one poster they get deleted regardless of who writes them, there are halachos about that type of speech as well as CR rules.

    Either way, I will try to be more cognizant of it.

    Thanks for responding.

    #1141309
    flatbusher
    Participant

    I guess anything is possible but he would know the name Chofetz Chaim and almost nothing else about Yiddishkeit? Never had any curiosity about his family?

    #1141310
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    My “camp”?

    What is my “camp”?

    And who, allegedly in my “camp”, makes more sweeping deragatory comments than the other “camp”?

    I will admit to making derogatory remarks about OO, but that is about the “religion” and the leaders who are ?????? ??????? and just evil. But not about swaths of Jewery. I will take issue with commenters who do make sweeping remarks about frum people or Gedolim. I won’t name such commenters here.

    And BTW,

    Shabbos Sholom to all.

    #1141312
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I guess anything is possible but he would know the name Chofetz Chaim and almost nothing else about Yiddishkeit? Never had any curiosity about his family?

    There is a very well known actress who is not Halachically jewish who is a decendent of the taz and speaks about it sometimes. However she doesnt seem too interested in being like her ancestor

    #1141313
    pro russia
    Member

    there is an emerging science of epigenetics which would explain how a character trait would be inherited.

    #1141314
    lesschumras
    Participant
    #1141315

    He objected to my deletion of his post.

    #1141316
    newbee
    Member

    All this talk about “camps” and “Jewish genetics” makes me feel uneasy.

    #1141317
    Sam2
    Participant

    newbee: Of course not. Leshitascha, the guy in the story isn’t Jewish.

    #1141318
    newbee
    Member

    “Of course not. Leshitascha, the guy in the story isn’t Jewish.”

    The guy in the story is Bernie Sanders

    #1141319
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Did he have a Christmas tree?

    #1141320

    It can’t be Bernie,

    He’s old enough to be the chofetz chaim’s brother

    #1141321

    One of Shuvu’s books has a story about a family from Russia who

    turned out to be descendants of the Chofetz Chaim. The mother was

    aware that her (great-?)grandfather had been a respected rabbi.

    If frumkeit or midos were a function of genetics (similar to whether one is left handed, or whether one is bald), what zechus would it be to do mitsvos?

    A person might inherit certain traits, but he would have the

    ability to go against them. “L’fum tza’aro agro” does mean

    that whatever is easier earns less reward…

    #1141322
    Geordie613
    Participant

    I think the reason no one knows about the Chofetz Chaim having had non-religious descendants is because it’s loshon hora!

    #1141323
    Daya Zooger
    Member

    geordie:

    I don’t know why anyone is surprised. We’re talking between the two WW. Who wasn’t affected? Anyhow, the fact that you never heard of grandchildren of the C”C who were lost to yiddishkeit L”A is a reflection of your lack of basic historical knowledge, as it is very well-known.

    Zahavasdad:

    The story was told by R Shimshon Pincus. Here’s a link:

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=19972&ocr=%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9C+%D7%96%D7%A7%D7%A1

    ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?”? , ?? ???.? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???,? ?????? ?’? ??? ??? (????”?) [??”?],? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?”? , ??? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????.? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??-???? ??? ???? ?????,? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????,? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? . ??? ???,? ???? ?????-????,? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? , ??? ???? ???? ????? : ?”?????,? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???????????,? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????”? – ?”???,? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????,? ?? ????? ????”.? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????.? ????? ?? ??? ???? , ??? ??? ?????? ?????,? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? . ??? ?? ?? ?”? ?? : ?”?? ???? ?? ?????????? ???? ? ?? ????? ?? . ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ? ???? ?]?? ??? ?? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ! ] ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????.? ?? ?? ??? ?????.? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? – ??? ???? ??????”? ! ??? ??? ???? ?? ?”? ??”?.?

    For her identity, see: link removed

    #1141324
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Not quite the same as the story ZD seemed to have been relaying.

    Either way, they way the story is written in Nefesh Shimshon is not at all like what ZD wrote.

    #1141326

    The story is very much like ZD said, and ZD was open about the fact that he did not recall the entire story, and that his point wasn’t the story, but that the Chofetz Chaim had a granddaughter who nebach wasn’t frum.

    #1141327
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    DY,

    It is a different story. I never suggested that the CC did not have grandchildren that unfortunately went of the derech.

    Unfortunately “ayn bayis asher ayn shom meis”. The draw of the “enlightenment” was very strong.

    That is why then, as now, the Rabbonim recommend keeping away from certain hashkofos. And speak very strongly against them.

    Further,the story in Nefesh Shimshon is well written.

    #1141328
    lesschumras
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft, the Chafetz Chaim was born in 1839 and married in 1857. So, it is very likely that his granddaughters grew up well before the Bais Yaacov movement began educating frum girls. In some ways the rate of assimilation prior to Bais Yaacov among frum girls waa worse than today. There were many alien harmful hashkofos in Eastern Europe then and girls typically received no education to combat them

    #1141329

    NDG, how is the story substantially different?

    LC, what do you mean, “in some ways”? My understanding is that it was very, very, bad.

    #1141330
    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, I agree. I guess I was trying not to overstate it but , yes, it was very bad. It was why the Gedolim , who were initially opposed, realized it had to be done and gave their approval to Bais Yaacov

    #1141331
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY, I agree. I guess I was trying not to overstate it but , yes, it was very bad. It was why the Gedolim , who were initially opposed, realized it had to be done and gave their approval to Bais Yaacov

    Im not sure when exactly but sometime in the 1800’s school became mandatory for both boys and girls. As boys went to Cheder, this usually satisfied the mandatory educational requirement. There was no equivelant for girls so they had to go to public school, thats why Beis Yaakov was formed

    #1141332
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    DY,

    “NDG, how is the story substantially different?”

    I didn’t say it was substantially different, I said the way it was written was very different. The writing styles are incomparable.

    #1141333
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    LC,

    I have no idea why you are addressing your comment to me. I see nothing in your comment that says anything contradictory to what I have said.

    #1141334

    Come on, now. You wrote, Not quite the same as the story ZD seemed to have been relaying. and, It is a different story.

    #1141335
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Nisht, I meant nothing negative. All I was doing was mentioning that the girls in time when the Chafetz Chaim’s granddaughter and have lived faced worse issues and had less education to withstand then

    #1141336
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Nisht,please don’t be so sensative

    #1141337
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    DY,

    It could be just that they way they are written is so different that to me it is different.

    I hope you put half as much ameilus into your learning as you do in your effort to get your insults through. We aren’t even discussing hashkofo here so you cannot claim you are defending Torah.

    #1141338
    Abba_S
    Participant

    During the early 1900 the draw to secularism was so great that even learned yeshiva students became irreligious. The only question is why did they refer to their great great grandfather as the Chofetz Chaim and not R’ Yisroel Meir Kagan. It could be the great great grandchild used R’ Yisroel Meir Kagan name and it just wasn’t retold that way.

    #1141339
    asher1
    Participant

    See Kli Yakar Parshas Re’eh Perek 12 passuk 25 – epigenetics min haTorah minayin…

    #1141340
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Abba, don’t infer suppositions in place of facts Rabbi Brander said the guest said the Chafetz Chaim.

    #1141341
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim’s last name was not Kagan it was Poupko, Im not sure why this isnt well known

    #1141342
    Joseph
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim’s name was never Poupko. One of his sons took that name, but it was never used by the Chofetz Chaim or his ancestors.

    #1141343
    twisted
    Participant

    Queen. the source for the concept of spiritual legacy is Midrash Raba Shmos 5. There the example (msiras nefesh for a mitzvah)is a play on words, Yisro sheltered a goel running from a sonei, and Yael sheltered a sonei ( Sisrah-in order to kill him) running from a goel (Barak)

    Here there is a time gap of some three hundred years, and Yael is possible only related to Yisro by marriage. This is in line with the language (“that mitzva will not stop (from being represented) in that household) and also with our concept of free will. If your children or grandchildren choose to excel in the causes and mitzvos in which you did, that is icing on the cake.

    #1141344
    The Queen
    Participant

    twisted: Thanks

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