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Someone mentioned to me that they think it says somewhere that Hashem said “If only the Jews would listen to my Torah and not believe in me….” The person wasn’t sure where it’s written. I had never heard of it all.
So, first I would like to know if it is indeed written somewhere, and if so, where?
Secondly – If it is true, I don’t get it. I can see perhaps keeping things like “do not kill” or “do not steal” etc. We would say – yeah I understand those. But why would I want to keep kosher or Shabbos if I don’t believe in Hashem? If I didn’t believe in Hashem, those things and many others would be meaningless to me. In my opinion, we keep the Torah BECAUSE we believe in Hashem. No?
Can anyone shed some light on this?
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It doesn’t actually say even if we don’t believe in Hashem, it says even if we leave Him, the light (another variant reads “the keeping)” of the Torah will bring us back.
I don’t know if leaving Him even refers to being kofer bakol.
the phrase is “halkevai osi azvi vtorosi tishmoru”
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The phrase is open to a few explanations, no?
How do the meforshim explain it?
MEDRASH EICHO BRINGS SEVERAL CHAZAL WHO TRY TO EXPLAIN THE POSUK IN YIRMIYAHU THAT SAYS; WHY WERE KLAL YISROEL THROWN OUT OF THEIR LAND, BECAUSE THEY DESERTED THE TORAH, THEY STOPPED GIVING TORAH RESPECT AND LEARNING PROPERLY. ANOTHER POSUK SAYS, BECAUSE YOU DESERTED ME (HASHEM) AND MY TORAH YOU DID NOT OBSERVE. SAYS THE MEDRASH: HALEVAI YOU WOULD HAVE LEFT ME BUT MY TORAH STILL OBSERVED. BECAUSE THE HOLY LIGHT IN THE TORAH AND THE STRENGTH OF DOING MITZVOS WOULD MAKE PEOPLE FEEL AND UNDERSTAND WHY THEY SHOULD HAVE HASHEM IN THEIR HEARTS. JUST AS FIRST THEY STOPPED RESPECTING HASHEM, THEN DESERTED THE TORAH; SO TOO BY GOING BACK TO TORAH, THEY WOULD GO BACK TO HASHEM.
I heard this from Rabbi Mizrachi.
I’ve had rabbis tell me that people focus too much on religion and not enough on Hashem.
If you want to get close to Hashem, then it’s through Torah. However, to just follow the rules without Hashem is taking Hashem out of Judaism [and G-d forbid removing Hashem from Torah-observance].
People focused on being religious can end up spending too much time trying to out-chumra eachother and the whole kavannah and ohr of Torah is lost.
Lightbrite – good point! very true.
At the same time, we do need both. Some people will use these kinds of arguments to attack those who are makpid on halacha (or maybe even are machmir sometimes – oh, the horror!).
The fact that our kesher with Hashem is important does not mean that halacha is not important and should not be used as an excuse to criticize people who feel that their Avodas Hashem involves being makpid in halacha (and maybe even engaging in chumras on occasion).
I know that you don’t do that, but there are those that do.
Thanks for your wisdom 🙂
1. “The fact that our kesher with Hashem is important does not mean that halacha is not important and should not be used as an excuse to criticize people who feel that their Avodas Hashem involves being makpid in halacha (and maybe even engaging in chumras on occasion). “
lilmod ulelamaid: Yea those rabbis helped me shift my focus towards Hashem, which was a refreshing approach.
2. “I know that you don’t do that, but there are those that do. “
lilmod ulelamaid: I know 🙁 But the weird thing is that why is it okay for kiruv professionals to criticize people who aren’t observing Torah? I know that the whole Torah is Truth thing means that a Jew who isn’t observing Torah is not living properly. Yet it’s kind of judgey imho.
“Yet it’s kind of judgey imho.”
That’s based on a mistaken idea of what being judgmental means according to the Torah. Western philosophy is, “I’m okay, you’re okay”. That is not Torah philosophy. We do not have to (and should not) say that what everyone does is okay.
On the other hand, in many cases (maybe most or all), we should separate the person from the action. The action is bad; the person is not or may not be a bad person.
Regarding kiruv, most people who work in Kiruv believe that people who are not religious are not to blame. It is not their fault – in most cases, they did not grow up with it. If they did, they may have been taught things incorrectly, in a way that turned them off.
We don’t really know if people are to blame or not and don’t care. It is not our job to judge people – only Hashem’s.
The point of doing kiruv is to help the other person out. We feel bad for them because Torah is awesome and we feel bad that they are missing out. We know about Torah because someone taught us; now we have an obligation to share it with those who don’t know about it.
lightbrite “I’ve had rabbis tell me that people focus too much on religion and not enough on Hashem.”
I’ve heard this statement a few times. I’m not sure about its meaning. Does it mean that some people are machmir just as a way to promote their social status? It’s obviously bad but I wouldn’t call that “religion”.
Maybe it means that some people observe only part what hashem told them to do? Like, hashem wants us to keep halacha but he also wants us to be nice to each other. So by only doing one of these things, we show that we don’t care about hashem’s will in its entirety, but focus instead on some part of his mitzvot?
There could also be a new, modern interpetation. That people care more about where they belong in sociaty (whether they are chareidi, MO, yeshivish, and what percent of each) then what the torah wants them to do?
lightbrite: “lilmod ulelamaid: I know 🙁 But the weird thing is that why is it okay for kiruv professionals to criticize people who aren’t observing Torah? I know that the whole Torah is Truth thing means that a Jew who isn’t observing Torah is not living properly. Yet it’s kind of judgey imho”.
If I get what you mean, you’re asking why it is not ok to be judgemental of bad behavior (like the one you mentioned) among frum people, but it’s ok to criticize secular people for their behavior.
My answer is that there is no difference. A bad act is a bad act no matter whether it’s done by a frum or secular person.
However, specifically about being machmir in halacha, I’ve personally met people who couldn’t acknowledge that being makpid on halacha had even the slightest value. They’d jump at every mention of chumra and give rants about people “making up” mitzvot (unsurprisigly these people weren’t very self-aware) So I guess that’s the kind of behavior LU was talking about.
LU: “Lightbrite – good point! very true.
At the same time, we do need both. Some people will use these kinds of arguments to attack those who are makpid on halacha (or maybe even are machmir sometimes – oh, the horror!).
The fact that our kesher with Hashem is important does not mean that halacha is not important and should not be used as an excuse to criticize people who feel that their Avodas Hashem involves being makpid in halacha (and maybe even engaging in chumras on occasion).
I know that you don’t do that, but there are those that do.”
You’re 100% right and even if you weren’t I respect your opinion but, (and please hear me out)
Doesn’t it fell a bit off topic to you?
What I mean is, is it necessery to make this kind of disclaimers every time one discusses any topic that could possibly be used against the torahfrum people?
I feel like being overly careful about how others could wrongly useinterpet the ideas you express might suppress any original idea and thought you have. You can’t think that way, and you can’t talk that way.
You need to first think independently and freely. If later you release your ideas to the public, you should revise them and make sure they can’t be easily misinterpeted. But you can’t have the little censor on your shoulder whisper in your ear the whole time.
I felt like you were too quick to divert the discussion into what it
–shouldn’t– be about, instead of actually dealing with what it is about. That’s why I brought this up. But even if you don’t feel it’s relevant here. I still had to get it out.
“There could also be a new, modern interpetation. That people care more about where they belong in sociaty (whether they are chareidi, MO, yeshivish, and what percent of each) then what the torah wants them to do?”
I used to think that those things didn’t matter at all, but at some point I realized/decided that it does have some importance, and a person can’t ignore those things altogether, at least not in Eretz Yisroel. I tried to live my life that way for years, and it doesn’t work.
In addition to the fact that there are hashkafic reasons why it is important, it is also important for sociological reasons. Part of being a Torah Jew is being a healthy functional person, and part of being a healthy, functional person does mean knowing what your identity is. Obviously, your main identity is that you are an Eved Hashem, but you also have to fit into society, and part of your identity is knowing what sociological group you identify with. Just like being American, etc, is part of your identity.
That being said, obviously the focus should be on serving Hashem, and everything else is a means to an end. And a person should never get so caught on their labels that make decisions solely based on whether it’s a Yeshivish thing to do or a Modern Orthodox thing to do or whatever.
Person1: “If I get what you mean, you’re asking why it is not ok to be judgemental of bad behavior (like the one you mentioned) among frum people, but it’s ok to criticize secular people for their behavior.”
I’m missing your point (or is it Lightbrite’s point). What bad behavior were we talking about amongst Frum people that someone said it’s not okay to criticize?If you were talking about the fact that I said that people shouldn’t criticize people for being makpid on halacha, that’s not bad behavior, so I’m not sure what you meant.
Anyhow, I think that people are usually much more judgmental of Frum people than of not-Frum people, since they understand that not-Frum people are tinok shenishba. This certainly applies to Kiruv professionals.
Person1 – I hear your point, but I don’t agree. I did not feel like I was diverting the topic of conversation. I agreed with what she said and didn’t have anything else to add right now. Well, actually, I had something to add, but it was a quote that I have to look for and can’t right now. So therefore, I had nothing to add. I think she expressed the point very well.
My point wasn’t to censor anyone or anything. I think that everything has two sides to it (at least). Part of being intellectual and part of being a Torah Jew who is trying to get to Emes means seeing both sides to things. Avraham represents Chesed, Yitzchak represents Gevurah, and Yaakov is Emes which is the combination of the two. If something is too one-sided, it is not emes.
My intention was certainly not to in any way discredit the original point, and I hope it wasn’t seen that way.
By the way, it seems to me that you were doing the same thing that I was 🙂
In any case, I appreciate your insight and feedback which was expressed politely and sincerely as always. I am glad to hear your opinion even if I disagree. I think it is good to know how people “hear” things and I will take it into consideration.
And now you motivated me to try to find the quote when I have a chance.
“If later you release your ideas to the public, you should revise them and make sure they can’t be easily misinterpeted”
Isn’t posting online considered to be releasing ideas to the public?
Person1 – lol, I write my first post before I saw your last one. I was totally doing the same thing in that post. That’s how my mind works (especially when I’m sleep-deprived)
In any case, just to let you know, I do agree with your point even though I was presenting the other side! I was not trying to discredit you or censor you in any way. I agree with you and felt you expressed the point well, and therefore there was nothing for me to add besides for presenting the other side.
But I do agree with you and it was a good point, and I am not trying to divert the topic.
gefen: Some people are “orthoprax”
They don’t believe, “dox”
But they practice, “prax”
So basically they are frum on the outside and just doing it for other reasons, such as keeping family together, maintaining friends and a community, lack of opportunities outside the frum community, etc.
Technically they practice Torah and are removed from Hashem.
The interesting thing is that there is the whole mitzvah gorer mitzvah thing. Where one mitzvah leads to another. Faith it until you make it. Generally it states that the more that you follow Torah the closer you’ll be to Hashem and believe.
Person1: Yes all of the above. We also need to be conscientious of avodas bein adam le chavero.
Person1 again: IMHO this thread is supporting the frum community vs being overtly or covertly against the frum community.
My thing from someone who grew up secular and started keeping more mitzvot was this whole stress about being religious.
Like my brain was spinning with “Omgosh this is so much. I cannot see myself being religious. I don’t want to be religious but I’m Jewish and I don’t know where I belong, at least I know some of where I don’t belong, but I want to be myself too and and blah blah blah panic.”
Enter rabbi who said, “Chill out [not necessarily in those words], just focus on getting closer to Hashem. Don’t think about all this religion business. Work towards developing a closer relationship with Hashem. The way to do that is through Torah.”
!!!!!
Revelation nation. Suddenly what I wanted was so clear. So much of my inner turmoil was about trying to conform to what everyone else seems to be doing so easily. Essentially I want to fulfill my mission in life. I’m not sure what that is exactly. Yet if I focus on what Hashem wants of me, and act accordingly, then with emuna I’m on the right path.
Thanks for asking your questions because hopefully anyone on the outside will get to this post and understand the purpose is to unite halachic observance and being close to Hashem.
Thanks
lightbrite you’re welcome and thanks for sharing. I’m sure what you wrote is going to be helpful to people.
If I understand you correctly, this is something I experienced as well. Growing up I used to believe that my ultimate purpose in life was to become a hardcore all-the-way chareidi person. I later realized this wasn’t what it was about. Maybe it just means becoming a grown-up.
LU: “In any case, I appreciate your insight and feedback which was expressed politely and sincerely as always” Thank you. The same goes to you.
“Growing up I used to believe that my ultimate purpose in life was to become a hardcore all-the-way chareidi person.”
It’s funny – I was the opposite. I used to think that labels were terrible and all that mattered was Avodas Hashem. But then I eventually realized that that wasn’t realistic. I do have to be part of society and have a label in order to survive. And I need to survive in order to be an Eved Hashem.
I used to think “boxes” were terrible. But eventually I realized that if you have a box, you can get away with “out-of-the-box-thinking much easier.
I guess everyone starts off in a different place and t/f has to take a different path to reach the same goal. As long as we are all headed in the same (right) direction.
Person1: “LU: “In any case, I appreciate your insight and feedback which was expressed politely and sincerely as always” Thank you. The same goes to you.”
Thank you!
Lightbrite: “Thanks for asking your questions because hopefully anyone on the outside will get to this post and understand the purpose is to unite halachic observance and being close to Hashem.”
Wise words. And I think that sums up our purpose in this world quite nicely!
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