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This has been discussed here many times before, but I must vent.
I am in my 30’s. I have 2 children in a Yeshiva in Brooklyn. I make JUST over $100k in salary per year. My wife works full time and makes around $40k. I do not over-spend, I happen to be pretty frugal. I know it’s easy to say without disclosing my finances, but for the sake of this discussion, please take my word for it. I can afford to pay my expenses and provide somewhat comfortably for my family (new clothes for each y”t, season, etc…)
What I cannot do is save any money. I make $100k/yr and I can’t own a home. I don’t receive any help from any family. No matter what I try I cannot save. Tuition keeps going up each year. I currently pay $1600/mo for my 2 kids. And that’s with a break. And they make me feel so awfully guilty about asking to not pay $1000/mo for each! I work 11-12 hr days, basically see my kids on weekends only, and I will not ever own my own house because of Yeshiva tuition. And summer day camp costs pretty much the same.
How much money do they expect you to earn to live as a religious Jew? I work so hard to make a decent living and it’s not enough to own a home because that money needs to be paid to Yes give. To me, this is insane! How much am I expected to earn?
The general argument to this is, well, you choose to send your children to a private school. And to me that is a ridiculous answer! Because we all know what would happen if I DIDN’T send my children to Yeshiva, but to public school instead. I don’t know what the Yeshiva’s finances are, but there is NO WAY my children cost this much. Am I paying to make up for other, lesser-earning children? I don’t make enough for that! The system is terribly broken and needs to be fixed! It is extortion because there aren’t any other options!
SMH!
1. The yeshivos are in a hopeless find since in effect they are paying for two schools and only can charge once. Two-hundred years ago the goyim’s school focused on a “classical” education, which they totally abandonned for a “modern” curriculum, and today they are totally ignorant of their own culture’s history and traditions and have become totally secular. We wisely refused to do so in our schools, but it means having to do a secular curriculum as well as a Jewish curriculum, which is expensive.
2. Compared to private schools (i.e. “prep schools”) most of our yeshivos are quite cheap, both in terms of “list”price and what people pay.
3. In big cities, one can shop around. If you are a zionist, you should probably be considering aliyah.
4. In America, home school is an option, but remember that the “opportunity cost” of one spouse (the wife) staying home, as well as the other spouse taking off time for work to be involved, will end up costing as much or more than tuition (especially if both spouses are college educated and have the option of gainful employment).
5. If the parents have the ability to homeschool in Torah subjects, public schools would be an option, however the problems of being “different” in a public school should not be underestimated. For all their rhetoric about diversity, American schools tend to prefer all students to act in the same predictable ways and the nails that stand out get hammered.
I know that tuition is burdensome, but I don’t understand your numbers. If you’re earning $140,000 per year, why is $24,000 breaking the bank?
Also, having spoken to several administrators, I believe that it really does cost the tuition fee to educate your child, and the parents who can’t afford full or close to full tuition are being subsidized by the donations given to the yeshivos.
“What I cannot do is save any money.”
1)sit down today with your spouse ASAP & “make a budget” (if that includes clothing only for 1 yom tov a year versus 3 then start doing that) start to write down your expenses on a computer & write both your paycheck also & see what the balance is at the end of the month.
2)Start to live more with “What you need not what you want”
(from what you wrote above, can you honestly say that everything you buy are NEEDS & NOT EXTRA FANTASIES?)
3)put all your credit & debit cards in your wallet behind other cards (like library or insurance cards etc…) so you wont pull it out like its nothing every time you see it. When a person pays his bills in cash it has a value & the person can feel it versus a credit card. (although you do get the bill at the end)
4)Go to your bank & tell them to transfer automatically a certain amount of money each month from your check to your savings account. (some people do $100 others more/less) you will see it start adding up
may Hashem be with you & give you Hatzlacha
Does the 100K figure include your wife’s income or just yours?
Joseph
Just his if you read it fully. His wife makes an additional 40k
Who exactly is “they”?
Money?!? What’s that?!?
money is todays avoda zara R”L & this is why the economy went down. we bow down to money & serve it like a god R”L Thus we left Hashem no choice but to take it away from us.
Home Schooling while Legal in NY, is alot more regulated than other states. you basically have to be a licensed teacher to do it
money is todays avoda zara R”L & this is why the economy went down. we bow down to money & serve it like a god R”L Thus we left Hashem no choice but to take it away from us.
Tell that to the Bank, Con Ed, Food , etc
For_real – What are home prices in Brooklyn and what are you paying in rent? Is the issue obtaining a down payment or making mortgage payments? Also, how many years have you been working?
All too often people focus on what they don’t have rather on what they do have.
Not being able to afford a house(in one’s thirties), seems to trump having a good job,a wife, and children in yeshiva.
Just like owning a house is a way to invest, having your children in yeshiva is a way to invest-in their future.
DY, the 140k is gross income. Once you deduct taxes, FICA, rent, shul dues, tzedaka, medical bills, utilities summer camps, food, there isn’t much left over
tuition like shabbos food is exempt from your cheshban allocated on Rosh hashana so this is what the Aybishter wants from you, does the yeshiva have a kollel?
LC, I am assuming taxes, FICA, rent, etc.
Summer camp was included in the $24k I mentioned.
Rent depends on what kind of lifestyle you live. Most people don’t need a huge apartment for a couple with two kids, and rent would turn into mortgage payments.
I think all said and done, $140k gross with two kids should leave something over, unless there are some atypical expenses.
Most tuition boards would ask what kind of car you drive and how you vacation before giving a break, on the theory that the rebbeim paying their insurance on their ’05 Chevy should come before the parents’ payments on a ’16 Lexus.
I’m not asking the OP what his personal expenses and expenditures are; it’s none of my business. I’m just making a point that $140k with two kids should be more thsn enough, typically.
With more kids, or a lower income, it wouldn’t be, and that’s normally where you hear about the tuition crisis.
DaasYochid – The factors I’m thinking of here are:
1: Have just recently started working, so no cushion / large debt load
2: Huge student loans (200K+)
3: Two cars (plus insurance on both)
4: Major rent (2K+) each month
5: Pays own health insurance.
If even 3 of those are true, this guy is in a bad spot.
If I knew what he did for a living, I might be able to suggest ideas.
tuition like shabbos food is exempt from your cheshban allocated on Rosh hashana so this is what the Aybishter wants from you, does the yeshiva have a kollel?
Mekor?
GAW
you also forgot taxes which eat up about 30-40% of ones income
ZD – Taxes aren’t unexpected or uncommon, and would basically be the same anywhere in the States, for all people.
$140K I think was meant Pre-tax so his net income was actually lower. yeshiva Tuition is post tax money
ZD – Once again, taxes are paid by everyone, so there would be no difference between his specific situation and others’ that he specifically is having a difficult time with making it.
Between Yeshiva tutions, Kosher food (it IS more expensive than non-kosher) and the higher costs of living in a jewish area, It does make a difference
When my kids are in school, I’m going to categorically refuse to pay more than the school’s annual budget divided by the number of kids.
Then, if I can afford, I’ll consider the school a tzedaka priority. And at least I’ll get a tax benefit.
I think they’ll be more than happy with that.
Will you trust them when they give you the number?
I’m going to categorically refuse to pay more than the school’s annual budget divided by the number of kids.
See DY above: “Also, having spoken to several administrators, I believe that it really does cost the tuition fee to educate your child, and the parents who can’t afford full or close to full tuition are being subsidized by the donations given to the yeshivos.”
It really costs full list price to educate your children. The poor children’s subsidy is coming from donors not other parents.
It really costs full list price to educate your children. The poor children’s subsidy is coming from donors not other parents.
That’s what you say. I’ve seen numbers to the contrary.
Do you insist the school operate at a non profit or do you believe they are entitled to operate at a profit?
Taxes aren’t unexpected or uncommon, and would basically be the same anywhere in the States, for all people.
**
Federal tax is the same. But state and city taxes are different. And some states do not have state tax.
Public Schools are paid for by everyone whethere they have kids in public school or not. People who dont have kids yet, or have kids past Public school age or dont have kids in public school all pay for public school. The only people who pay for yeshivas are those whose kids are in that yeshiva (or people who have connections to kids in that yeshiva like grandparents)
“It really costs full list price to educate your children. The poor children’s subsidy is coming from donors not other parents.”
“That’s what you say. I’ve seen numbers to the contrary.”
You’ve seen numbers?
Truth is this is a silly comment because there is a huge range in tuition charged. You have schools that charge as Low as 3-4,000 tuition and you have those that charge 30,000 and up. And I am referring to Yeshivas, not other private schools.
I have reviewed financials of private schools that charge in the upper 40,000 per student and still receive contributions and are netting (not gross, net) 8-10 million a year and have reserves and endowments of many millions. But this not the case for any of the yeshivas I’ve seen. Any one that actually showed a net gain for the year was based on donations tiding them over. And the gains were not huge and for the most part were used for buildings and he like which are not expensed as spent.
I know that there will posters that will say, that’s because the administrators are taking all the profit as salary. But that simply is not the case.
I have reviewed financials of private schools that charge in the upper 40,000 per student and still receive contributions and are netting (not gross, net) 8-10 million a year and have reserves and endowments of many millions. But this not the case for any of the yeshivas I’ve seen. Any one that actually showed a net gain for the year was based on donations tiding them over. And the gains were not huge and for the most part were used for buildings and he like which are not expensed as spent.
I don’t think we’re talking about the same numbers.
I’m saying if you take the annual budget (say, 1.5 million), and divide it by the number of kids (say, 200), then you get the amount it costs to educate each kid in that school (in my example based on nothing, 7500).
In that example, based on nothing, I would categorically refuse to pay more than 7500 per kid.
Do you insist the school operate at a non profit or do you believe they are entitled to operate at a profit?
Not sure what you mean by that. I’m not aware of any yeshiva day school which is run as a business for profit and the owner takes home the equity interest. They’re all run as nonprofit organizations which means that any extra they make over what they spend stays inside the organization.
How do you figure annual budget – including cost of the building or not?
How do you figure cost per kid – every kid the same, or more for kids who need more resources?
“on the theory that the rebbeim paying their insurance on their ’05 Chevy should come before the parents’ payments on a ’16 Lexus.”
This statement is wrong on many levels. On the simplest one, the intended takeway is simply not true.
“on the theory that the rebbeim paying their insurance on their ’05 Chevy should come before the parents’ payments on a ’16 Lexus.”
This statement is wrong on many levels. On the simplest one, the intended takeway is simply not true.
Please explain the ways this is wrong, what you think the intended takeaway was, and why you think it’s not true.
In the yeshivas with tuitions over 20k, the rebbaim tend to be paid more, paid on time and have benefits like health insurance.
I can’t imagine what rebbe’s get paid when tution is under 10k
How do you figure annual budget – including cost of the building or not?
There’s a whole chochma of accounting, and they’ve figured this stuff out.
You amortize the cost of capital assets over their expected usable life.
Yes, that’s what I would say as well, although I don’t know that usable expected life can necessarily be predicted accurately.
I think if you include that, full tuition will just about cover the actual cost of educating a child.
What about my second question? There are related questions to ask as well: does pre-school pay less than 8th grade? According to your formula, it would. What about a mossad which contains an elementary school and a high school? A girls’ and boys’ division? Do you pay less if your child is in a large class or has a less experienced, lower salaried teacher, and more for a smaller class and more expensive teachers? Would you tweak your formula to reflect the cost of your child, rather than the average in the school?
BTW, I don’t disagree with your concept. Whatever moral/social/religious obligation there might or might not be to subsidize another’s child should be considered a contribution. The schools are claiming, though, that full tuition is the amount that covers your child’s education (and I don’t know if they figure in amortized building cost).
I’ve never heard it claimed that full tuition is intended to equal that amount, until reading this thread.
Do your research and get back to us.
As a quick guess, find out how much it costs to educate a child in public school, and figure out if Yeshiva should cost less or more.
According to the Washington Post in 2014, NYC spent $20000 per student in public school. The national average was $10600, many school districts spent less than $7k. In public schools there are teachers for subjects like art,music, and gym. Many also have sports teams. Yeshivas have none of these subjects, and they pay their teachers lessthan the pu lic schools.
So yes, I believe it costs the yeshivas less to educate one student, and anyone paying full tuition is covering for those who can’t.
The solution maybe to move to Rochester where tuition is only $1,000.00 for all year kids. They advertise on Yeshiva World. The commute is a killer but at least you can afford the tuition. You may need to learn how to fly a small plane if you need to work in NYC.
Bk613,
NYC spent $20000 per student in public school.
Right, and the OP was talking about NYC, and says they’re asking for half that, and yeshivos have a longer schedule and pay rebbeim and secular teachers. To be fair, busing and some other things are covered by the government, but the numbers are so unbalanced that it seems your conclusion is backwards.
Do you insist the school operate at a non profit or do you believe they are entitled to operate at a profit?
Are they presenting themselves as a non-profit to get tax breaks? If so, then they should not operate at a profit. If not, then yes.
The Wolf
NYC spent $20000 per student in public school.
IIUC, a good percentage of that goes to educate children with severe learning disabilities… situations most yeshivos don’t deal with.
That’s not to say that it’s inexpensive to educate non-disabled kids… but it’s not $20K either.
The Wolf
Good point. Yeshivos do have special programs, but not usually for severe cases.
Do you know what the number would be if we adjust for that?
DY: Someone quoted a national average of $10.6K with many secular school districts as low as under $7K. Granted NYC is more expensive to operate a school, but how much more does it cost to operate a Yeshiva in Brooklyn than in Cleveland?
How much more does it cost to operate a public school in NYC than in Cleveland?
What are yeshivos in Cleveland charging for tuition?
NYC spent $1.2 billion, yes billion, on special needs kids to go to private schools when the public school system couldn’t provide for their needs (thank you Google) this doesn’t include services that they do provide in house. And there are 1.1 million kids in the PS system so the private tuition alone costs $1090 per kid.
Back to the original topic, assuming that w/o special ed the cost per kid is slightly above the national average. A yeshiva would still cost less, fewer subjects= fewer salaries, and yeshiva secular studies teacher doesnt get health insurance and earn less b/c they usually don’t have the same (or any) education where as a PS teacher usually has a masters degree.
OP said his kids yeshiva wants $1000 a month per kid (10 month school yr so $10000) I can’t see how it costs the school 10k per kid.
Thus my conclusion that charging 10k a yr is an attempt to cover for those who can’t pay full.
How much more does it cost to operate a public school in NYC than in Cleveland?
New York government may in general be more wasteful than other governments, so I’m no sure how much a comparison between New York public schools versus other city’s public schools will tell you. New York government is also far more unionized and union-friendly.
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