- This topic has 49 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 9 years ago by .
-
Posts
-
Any ideas?
Cufflinks from I8Kermit with his initials or name in hebrew, or in the shape of a steak.
your husband or mine?
Chanukah presents are chukas akum.
Forget the cufflinks, just the steak
Better yet, a gift wrapped pastrami sandwich
I would prefer those to another (useless) present any day
Why don’t you tell us a bit about your husband, so that we have some better idea of what he might appreciate.
The Wolf
Bechukoseihem Lo Seileichu
Maybe some ornaments for the Menorah?
Since when do goyim give chanuka presents?
Why don’t you just give “old fashioned Chanukah Gelt” – Your pay check (if you work).
If he is a chocolate lover give him a box of ‘chocolate gelt’.
Since when do goyim give chanuka presents?
When did Jews start giving Christmas presents on Chunkah (and call it a Chanukah present)?
Why don’t you just give “old fashioned Chanukah Gelt” – Your pay check (if you work).
That’s a good idea other than that her paycheck is already his.
If he is a chocolate lover give him a box of ‘chocolate gelt’.
Also sounds like a good idea that’s kind of borderline. It is questionably Chanukah Gelt, which is indeed the tradition.
when toys became more affordable than cash
How many husbands do you have? In my humble opinion, that’s a bigger problem than Chanukah gifts.
Joseph, not if she says aini nizones v’aini osah.
Joseph
“When did Jews start giving Christmas presents on Chunkah (and call it a Chanukah present)?”
Less than a century ago. Though if given on Chanuka it isnt a christmas present. A birthday present isnted a “Christmas present given on a birthday” and a Chanuka present isnt a “christmas present given on Chanuka”
“Also sounds like a good idea that’s kind of borderline. It is questionably Chanukah Gelt,”
When did Jews start giving christmas chocolate on chanuka (and call it Chanuka gelt)
I’ll bet more recently than presents. Why the double standard?
“which is indeed the tradition. “
For how long?
How long does a Jewish practice have to be done until it is called a minhag?
“Chanukah presents are chukas akum. “
Machlokes you and the Remah.
Y”D 178:1 (edited from wiki source)
[ny underlying]
R’ Yaakov explictly defends gifts in Emes L’yaakov on Shulchan Aruch.
Syag: What are you talking about? Is there an amount of money you feel you are M’chuyav to give?
DY: He can divorce her then.
As far as I know, Jews don’t give Christmas presents. But many give Chanuka presents. I also give sukkos presents, pesach presents and shavuos presents, birthday presents and I was just in the mood presents. Some wives appreciate their husbands coming home with something special for them on special occasions. That’s Jewish enough for me.
DY: That’s not the default and she would have to say that explicitly (as you said). Do you know any wives that invoked that? That would be quite rare, so we can assume a couple falls under the default halacha.
ubiq: Chanukah Gelt has been the tradition for millenia.
Joseph
Millenia? Are you serious? The Gemara discusses Gelt? Rishonim? why do you make stuff up to fit your agenda?
And besides why is christmas chocolate ok but not christmas presents?
Yes, millenia. I didn’t say chocolate is okay. I was clerring it might not be as bad as another christmas present.
DY
Was silly last year and is silly this year. Gift giving, singing, eating and smiling are all basic human expressions of festivity and celebration and dont take on a “??? ????? ??????
Cookies are evil.
It would be chukas goyim if we made lists and checked them twice to determine whose been naughty and nice and delivered the presents via a fat bearded guy in a red bekeshe (or kapote – depending on affiliation) riding a reindeer. we all know that our bekeshes and kapotes are (mostly) black and honda odessys and toyota siennas are the vehicles of choice for most of the toy deliveries. oh, our delivery guys use the front door, ocassionally the side, but never the chimney.
I looked up Xmas Chocolates just to know what they look like.
One place that had Chocolate Coins it was Kosher! That means they are giving ‘Chanukah Gelt’ as a Xmas present not the other way around. “Chanukah Gelt” dates back before “J” was born. Presents OTOH as you mentioned a ‘century’ ago. That is not comparable.
Besides Who ever said Xmas chocolate was OK?
It is definitely NOT OK!
‘How long something is done’ does not make it a good/kosher minhag. It’s the origin, Who started it and Why that matter.
There is such a thing as a Minhag Ta’us.
Wasn’t and still isn’t silly. Do you say that about anything you don’t agree with? There are poskim on either side, and the sevara I presented directly addressed you point.
Lol joseph
Your knowledge of history is almost as bad as halacha
Chanuka Gelt in its present form is at most a few hundred years old. Some Achronim (I beleive Magen Avrohom) do mention a minhag of giving money to teachers and from there it evolved to giving money to kids and from there to gifts.
After all Shava kesef kekesef
“Yes, millenia.”
source?
” I didn’t say chocolate is okay. I was clerring it might not be as bad as another christmas present.”
Why?
See Emes leyaakov 670: footnote 583 where he says this explicitly
DY
“Do you say that about anything you don’t agree with? “
Nope only things that are silly. And saying a basic expression of human festivities like gift giving is assur because it has a “shemetz of avado zara” is silly Goyim smile to each other on Christmas, they sing songs, they have parties/get-togethers are these assur on Chanuka? (as you know even if they copy us once it is part of an avodo zara it might become assur).
“There are poskim on either side”
That says chanuka gifts are chukas akum?????? I’m sorry Ive never seen any saying it is. (I have seen several saying it is not) source?
555
“That means they are giving ‘Chanukah Gelt’ as a Xmas present not the other way around. “
I dont follow. Christmas is among the busieset time of year for chocolate companies (the busiest according to some stats). From there it spread to Chaunuka. I assure you Rashi didnt give his kids chocolate coins
“”Chanukah Gelt” dates back before “J” was born.”
Nope it is a few hundred years old first mentioned by late achronim.
“Besides Who ever said Xmas chocolate was OK?”
Joseph did!
“‘How long something is done’ does not make it a good/kosher minhag. It’s the origin, Who started it and Why that matter.”
Lol! of course it does In fact in a hundred years or so our descendents will continue our argument, though yours will insist on hoyiche inyanim involved int eh “millenia old” minhag of giving davka presents based on all sorts of gematriyos while my descendet will respond actually gifts as minhag is only a few hundred years old and before that it was money and before that it was money to poor/melamdim
I have heard b’sheim poskim, but I don’t have a written source. You’re repeating your same arguments, which I have addressed (sound familiar?).
One thing you should not do, ubiquitin, is lie or put words in others mouths. Your ignorance and inability to comprehend points that are repeated to you and broken down to you repeatedly, is no excuse.
DY
“I have heard b’sheim poskim”
which?
“You’re repeating your same arguments,”
How are you not doing the same?
How is this entire tangent of the thread not the same?
“which I have addressed”
I’m sorry, where?
Again my question is why is gift giving more of a shemetz of avoda zara than smiling/having a party/singing all of which are basic modes of human festivity and take place on both Chanuka and lehavdil christmas? (and again keep in mind which came first doesnt necessarily matter according to many poskim)
“(sound familiar?).”
Yes its is your go to response when you have trouble responding to my points so you claim you did already then when I ask where, you stop responding.
Ask yourself this, weve had countless arguments on this forum have you ever given in? I mean by sheer luck alone at soem point I should raise a point that youd have to concede. My arguments are fact based, often sourced, thought out, though perhaps usually not well written and often full of typos. By sheer luck alone what are the odds that you can respond to every point with out ever being wrong? Not even once out of hundreds by now? Rather you arent man enough to own up when you are wrong so whe you lose or dont have a response you say you responded already. So yes it sounds quite familiar. You are not the only poster who does this.
Joseph
I try not to lie
Here is where you allowed christmas chocolate
You called giving Christmas chocolate on Chanuka
“Also sounds like a good idea that’s kind of borderline.”
“Your ignorance and inability to comprehend points that are repeated to you and broken down to you repeatedly, is no excuse.”
Its hard to comprehend points that arent logical and even harder to understand points that arent said
Here are several direct questions I posed to you that you have not responded too in this thread alone!
“Why the double standard?” [ie why you allow christams chocolate when called chanuka gelt but not christmas presents when called chanuka presents]
“How long does a Jewish practice have to be done until it is called a minhag?”
“The Gemara discusses Gelt? Rishonim?”
“source?”
“Why?” [as to why you were clerring chocolate might not be as bad as another christmas present.”
There’s no point in retracting if I’m not wrong. I have admitted to error numerous times on this forum, just not to you, because I find perhaps (as apparently do others) in the cases we disagree (most), your arguments to not be logical. In this particular case, your opinion isn’t wrong per se, but your inability to see legitimacy in the other side is.
I’ll try one more time.
1) Gift giving on the chogo has religious significance.
2) We specifically copied it from them, in the sense that we do it on the holiday which falls in the same season (because we didn’t want our kids to be jealous).
This is dissimilar to your examples.
DY
“1) Gift giving on the chogo has religious significance”
why? and why more than smiling/having a party/singing
“2) We specifically copied it from them, in the sense that we do it on the holiday which falls in the same season (because we didn’t want our kids to be jealous).”
Agreed!
Though I wouldnt say “specifically”. I would say subconsciously absorbed via osmosis.
“This is dissimilar to your examples.”
why why why? Ive been asking over and over. gift giving isnt exactly wearing a specific color cape or putting a key in bread it is a basic form of human expression. You keep saying it is dissimilar. why?
“(as apparently do others)”
I was referring to Joseph,
“but your inability to see legitimacy in the other side is.”
Do you say the same to those who outright say it is chukas akum? In this thread it would seem you disagree with joseph (almost?) as much as with me. why not call him out? Especialy since its not like I’m saying there is a chiyuv to give presents. You dont want to give, gezunterheit dont All I am really doing is defending those who do give. why arent you doing the same if my opinion isnt wrong?
ubiqitin, I posted earlier:
“I looked up Xmas Chocolates just to know what they look like.
One place that had Chocolate Coins it was Kosher! “
Explanation:
*Goyishe* places selling X-mas Chocolate do not all sell chocolate coins. They have many different shapes and designs, different colors and decorations etc. but not coins.
One place that had coins – advertised them as *Kosher*. This means a Goyish boss wanting to give a Jewish employee an Present – along with all his other employees getting *X-mas presents* can give him something *Jewish*/Kosher.
That does not make it a Jewish custom by any stretch of the imagination. Nor does it turn *Chanukah Gelt* into a goyish custom because the Goy gave it to the Jew.
If for example , a Goy gave you a present Shabbos Candles. Does this mean from now on Goyim light Shabbos Candles? The Goy purposely chose a present to give to the Jew that he can use. That doesn’t make this item a Goyish custom.
1) GIYF. There are several theories, one having to do with the wise men.
2) We’re not agreed, because I’m suggesting (again GIYF) that it was not merely through osmosis.
I think what bothers me is your easy dismissal, calling a very reasonable position “silly”.
Christmas stole the concept of gift giving from previous religions. Giving gifts is possibly a direct result of the cold weather.
Copied from Nuts.com
“Bling Bling! These Chocolate Gold Coins emblazoned with President Kennedy’s image are the perfect party accessory to impress your guests. Use as Chanukah Gelt.
There are approximately 40 pieces per pound.”
This one actually does NOT mention kosher. But you see how they advertise it as *Chanukah Gelt* along with other *Holiday Chocolate*.
Chanukah presents to adults???
And people claim Open Orthodoxy doesn’t follow Jewish traditions?????
555
I’m sorry I have absolutly no idea what you are talking about
DY
1) those arent real theories. gifts is a form of human expresion, that some attach religous significance to it doesnt make it so. (did you think we are the only ones who do that with customs?)
2) Cool thanks.
Though thats not how its practiced by most people
(andI love how you accept academics for minhagim you dont like yet not for those you do, and do you agree that the gelt is not “milenia old” and was probably not always given to children?.)
The position that i think is silly is dismissing it as out of hand chukas akum. If someone said look it feels goyish, acccording to some shitas it might be chukas akum, its better to be machmir etc, i wouldnt argue.
But to outright dismiss what in Emes leyaakov is reffered to as a “minhag” and to say all those frum people giving presents are over a d’oraisah is absolutly silly.
That and the idea that gift giving is a form of avoda zarah is silly too inspite of what you say in 1
Charliehall: These are the same people deviating from Jewish customs.
Besides, some people don’t grow up.
1) those arent real theories. gifts is a form of human expresion, that some attach religous significance to it doesnt make it so. (did you think we are the only ones who do that with customs?)
They are real theories. Whether we need to assume them to asser, or at least should be choshesh, is a valid question.
2) Cool thanks.
Though thats not how its practiced by most people
Hmmm?
(andI love how you accept academics for minhagim you dont like yet not for those you do,
Accept? Choshesh.
and do you agree that the gelt is not “milenia old” and was probably not always given to children?.)
No idea, don’t care.
The position that i think is silly is dismissing it as out of hand chukas akum.
Is that a retraction? Because that’s not what you said.
DY
“Is that a retraction? Because that’s not what you said.”
not a retraction at all. If Joseph had said Look it may come from the goyim, and if it does then it may be assur. I wouldnt have argued so vehmently certainly not year after year.
My argument is with the blanket dismissal of something as innocuous as gift giving and as practiced by most yidden and many frum ones as chukas akum. That is silly for several reasons.
The other idea that is silly is to view gift giving as a religious act. In spite of what you googled.
Sufganiot
Pizza
You said it about my old post, not about anything Joseph wrote.
I suppose most gift giving could fall under the category of chukas akum; after all, the custom of the world is to give gifts for almost any occasion; to name a few: baby and bridal shower gifts, and birthday gifts and wedding gifts, anniversary and holiday gifts.
In all likelihood, the goyim copied their December gift giving from the yidden, as almost all of their religious customs and rules have their origins in our own minhagim and halacha.
In some instances, the yidden did away with our minhagim since they were copied and practiced by the goyim.
It’s interesting that the children of intermarried couples are very machmir in this respect and while being totally ignorant of Judaism, they expect gifts for and their bar/bat mitzvah along with Hanukah (8) and xmas gifts.
But Chanukah gift giving got way out of hand long ago. Where is the kol korei from our Rabbonim? What happened to the teaching of sonas matonos yichye?
What is the best and least expensive gift a wife and husband can give each other and would be the most appreciated; some compliments and a bit of mutual respect. And I don’t think we need to worry that the goyim will be copying this too.
Compliments and respect could get out of hand too. A family can destroyed by not speaking anything but compliments, never expressing opinions or ideas out of “respect”.
One thing you should not do, ubiquitin, is lie or put words in others mouths. Your ignorance and inability to comprehend points that are repeated to you and broken down to you repeatedly, is no excuse.
Motzi shem ra, oinaas devarim and malbin pnei chaveiro b’rabim are also things one should not do. Careful.
according to some “scholars” (that is how they are called, I know nothing about them or their scholarship) the custom of gift giving on the 25th of december is done as a zecher for gifts given on the december 25th in question, namely the gift of gold (chanuka gelt?), frankincense and myrrh to a certain baby by three men who may or may not have been wise. over the years this “zecher” has been adapted by different cultures so that the original zecher has been completely corrupted (unless there is an opinion out there that can explain the connection between the latest iphone, tickle me elmo or video game) to the point where there is little religious significance to the present day gift giving.
Whether or not one should engage in the practice of gift giving on chanuka, is something I will leave to each individual to ask of their own Rav.
As to what type of present to buy your husband, get him something that he would appreciate, you know him, his parents and siblings know him and hopefully he has good friends who know him and what he would appreciate. Ask them. Why wait till chanuka to give him a gift, buy him something and give it to him as soon as you get it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.