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So, the big question is, how will R’ Herschel Shachter respond to this? I would hope that he would support this kol koreh. At the same time, there are definitely people within YU who support “Open Orthodoxy”. Will this cause a huge ruckus with YU?
I hope Klal Yisrael can maintain achdus, but this will unfortunately be a huge nisayon.
Denouncing other people is not a way to create Achdus
The more modern communities and Rabbis will ignore because they do not issue Kol Koreh’s. The communities dont work that way.
Rav Schecter cannot issue a psak and excepct every MO to follow it without question like in the Charedi communities
Why would R’ Schachter have to say anything? He’s been saying Open Orthodoxy is Conservative for years. This won’t cause a problem within YU. The RCA statement last week about female Smichah caused a bit of a controversy (and by “a bit of a controversy” I mean that some on YU’s left-most wing were upset by it for technical reasons and only a very small few disagreed with the substance), but this won’t cause anything there. Every YU Rosh Yeshivah agrees with it and probably at least 80% of the Talmidim (maybe even over 90%) do. And that rate is close to 100% within Smichah.
Denouncing other people is not a way to create Achdus
thats the point. we dont want achdus with apikorsim. we push them away. their ideology is poison to yidishkeit. if individual members want to do tshuva and come back to torah true Judaism , we will have achdus and take them back with open arms. but the actual group? no way! we push them as far as possible! no achdus with people who deny basic tenets of judaism
Sam 2 – How do you know so much about YU – when you live in Vegas?
The more modern communities and Rabbis will ignore because they do not issue Kol Korea’s. The communities dont work that way.
That’s a funny thing for you to say on the same day the RCA issued several kol korei’s.
the RCA did not put out a Kol Korea, It was a statement, but not a Kol Koreh in the same meaning as an Agugah Kol Koreh
spell-edit, for the two year olds among us
skirpka: I hope you were being sarcastic. Regardless of what each of us holds, we are all yidden and required to look out for one another and not push anyone away. Who are we to judge? It is all up to Hashem.
This is actually one of the few hot button issues where R’ Schachter and Agudah agree 100%. That said, having talked to more than a few former YU students, I doubt that 90% of their students agree about this. I think I remember them publishing an article in their newspaper from a professor arguing that there’s no issue with women wearing tefillin.
The Agudah seems more concerned about OO than the average person and its a good diversion from real issues that need to be addressed to their own flock
Who are we to judge?
Halacha is that we must judge. We have to know whose wine not to drink and who not to count in minyanim among a number of other halachic issues. The Chofetz Chaim tells us to judge who is an apikorus:
“???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ – ????: “???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”.
??????- “???????? ???? ????? ?????… ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???…”
Moetzes Denounces Open Orthodoxy – Why should Open Orthodoxy care what the Moetzes thinks? The “Moetzes” (in the form of its members) has already taken many stances against what the OO think, including child abuse, vaccinations and going to college (as well as many others).
This is really just a statement for the Yeshivish in America. If you wish to continue to be part of our club (and get your children into our schools, marry off your daughters, etc.) then you had better not support or attend functions with OO “Rabbis”.
P.S. If they want to make a statement, have Rav Shechter, Rav Meir Stern from Passaic, Rabbi Forst from Far Rockaway, Rabbis Schwartz and Fuerst from Chicago, as well as others with a geographical distribution. Have a “big tent” statement, not a group that has been discredited by their own statements (P.E.A.C.H.).
</rant>
ZD,
“Denouncing other people is not a way to create Achdus”
1) If you were to actually read the letter from the Agudah, you would note that it does not denounce any individual. It denounces a movement.
2) Your refrain is typical of those who do not have a legitimate response. You do not look away from those actively corrupting yiddishkeit because you are worried about achdus. An ihr hanidachas was destroyed. It does not say in the Torah to be worried about achdus in such instances.
3) This phony movement has lauded gay marriage and is on the verge of saying intermarried couples should be embraced, specifically because they are intermarried because of “achdus”. Welcome to a corrupt line of thinking.
“It was a statement, but not a Kol Koreh in the same meaning as an Agugah Kol Koreh.”
The extra bit of condescending attitude toward an individual is NOT a part of our tafkid and invalidates the rest of your message. I am doing you a favor and taking away the distraction
2) What exactly do you imagine is the difference between a statement and a Kol Korei? They mean, and are, exactly the same thing.
Health: I try to stay informed. 🙂
zogt: If I was told correctly, over 700 Yeshivah students signed a petition to shut down the newspaper because of that (and similar issues). It has always been a representation of the most liberal wing and not accurately represented the student body. (True story, in the 1940s or whenever it was, the Commentator wrote an article attacking Rav Soloveitchik for being a shill of the Agudah who would destroy YU.)
Please tell me where the Chofetz Chaim did not count a jew who as part of a Minyan or did not drink wine touched bya jew
ZD – i have to disagree with you here. whether or not they are ignoring big issues, this is more than a big issue. when people present themselves as frum, learned people, and then start making changes and adjustments to halacha it is very, very dangerous for us. When someone not affiliated accepts gay marriage, it does not influence your thought or action. But when this movement appears to be following halacha and they start accepting things that are NOT sanctioned by halacha it needs to be denounced as it can lead people astray. Which we even see by the support here.
I think this issue is one of the biggest problems i have had with the CR since i began. I heard so many awful comments about rabbis and jews without having a clue why it would be acceptable to do so. Someone finally explained to me the concept i just summarized above and i understood just from my own response how easy it is to validate people who are corroding halacha. Unfortunately, the people doing the “pushing away” are not always careful about giving over the L’shem Shamayim-ness of their words and there is no doubt their message is largely lost among those people who they think they may be protecting.
Witnessing mud slinging by yeshivish people at OO leaders just looks like a fulfillment of a stereotype. It would be helpful and much more productive as a defense of halacha if it was expressed that way, denounced in relation to the concepts being supported and with less letzanus and more pride for genuine halacha.
I am sure those who do it will have a hundred sources to support their style, but I think it is doing damage to those who wish to preserve the dignity of Torah and it’s supporters.
Joseph: So the Chofetz Chaim was advocating divisiveness among Jews?
Syag
Rather than denouncing other people, One should improve oneself. You dont win friends and infuence people by denouncing others, However you do win friends and influence people by showing people the beauty of the torah and how loving it is.
A simple example is Zaka, everyone knows there is tension in Israel between Charedim and non-chareim, but almost everyone in Israel respects Zaka.
People dont want to hear negative mudslinging, they want to hear positive messages.
Having a minyan and then telling someone they are not part of it, doesnt have any positive results, only creates resentment
ZD – you are correct in theory, and I understand completely what you are saying. Those behaviors do not feel right at all and seem to go against everything we are taught. The line has to be drawn, tho, at letting people who are actively making changes to halacha and claiming it acceptable. If someone is degrading the torah, it is my understanding that they CANNOT be included in a minyan. You are welcome to invite them to dinner, to a shiur, feel free to be in an exercise class with them and display love for them as humans. You are obligated, however, to be clear that you will not support their damaging hashkafos.
This is very different from how you treat someone with a different hashkofo, this is about someone who is actively bringing a breach to orthodox judaism.
If you take it out of the context of judaism, it may be easier to understand. There is a huge difference between respecting a person created in Hashem’s image even tho he believes differently than you, and respecting someone who is encouraging people to go against Hashem’s Torah. I only agree that there should be more evidence of Lshem Shamayim and cause to go along with it.
There is a differnce between Avi Weiss and other leadership of OO and just a layperson.
if They wanted to condem Avi Weiss and say you cant drink his wine that is one thing. However if you say you cant drink the wine of someone who jsut happens to go to Hebrew Institute of Riverdale thats differnet , if someone goes to such a shul you need to act very differently . The lay person are not degenerating the torah, they are just following their leaders.
Please tell me where the Chofetz Chaim did not count a jew who as part of a Minyan or did not drink wine touched bya jew
Um what? Are you kidding? You’re insinuating that the chofetz chaim didn’t follow b’feirush halacha?
the RCA did not put out a Kol Korea, It was a statement, but not a Kol Koreh in the same meaning as an Agugah Kol Koreh
I have no idea what you mean by that. My only interpretation is that you have this thing in your head that you think the chareidim do and you interpret everything we do int that vein, and anything MO do not in that vein.
The only difference was the words kol korei on the top and the fancy sounding whereas.
I can say whereas also. See. e.g. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/wherein-popa-gets-his-deserts
zahavasdad,
if They wanted to condem Avi Weiss and say you cant drink his wine that is one thing. However if you say you cant drink the wine of someone who jsut happens to go to Hebrew Institute of Riverdale thats differnet , if someone goes to such a shul you need to act very differently . The lay person are not degenerating the torah, they are just following their leaders.
I’m confused. Where in the kol korei was there anything about drinking/touching wine mentioned? Or anything about laypeople?
The main point I saw from it was that Open Orthodoxy was not a form of Torah Judaism (i.e., Orthodoxy), and therefore their leaders are not rabbis, despite their usage of the terms rabbi and semicha.
It also ended with a prayer for mercy upon all Jews (regardless of affiliation).
Um what? Are you kidding? You’re insinuating that the chofetz chaim didn’t follow b’feirush halacha?
There is a well known story of a bocher who was caught smoking in the yeshiva on Shabbos. He was called in the Chofetz Chaim and what do you think the Chofetz Chaim did? Do you think he yelled at him, YOU KOIFER , you are being kicked out of the yeshiva and its assur to drink wine you touched and you are no longer part of the minyan?
No the chofetz chaim didnt say a word, He just cried into the bochers hands and said Shabbos and cried some more and said shabbos and the bocher got the message
ZD, that story has nothing to do with not drinking a kofer’s wine.
Did he then drink the bochur’s wine? Did he use him for an eid at the next yeshiva wedding?
Avram,
It has been interepred that “now we know whose wine we can drink and who can be part of a minyan”
It seems here people dont get my point, Its not what was said, but how it was said and if it was nessasry to say such a thing at all especially since they pose no threat to charedi judaism at all. I doubt OO even exists in lakewood or Monsey
So What? Who Cares?
Bigger problems facing Klal Yisroel.
they pose no threat to charedi judaism at all.
So? They pose a threat to mislead frum Yidden, and they distort the Torah. Those are big enough reasons to protest.
I don’t understand the people on the defensive here. Do you think we should have to accept the Conservative and Reform movements as Torah Judaism so as to promote achdus?
Do you think that if a movement includes the word “Orthodox” in its title that it’s allowed to do whatever it wants without condemnation? This is a circus. There’s a possible threat that this movement masquerading as Orthodox might actually trick people. Isn’t that worthy of condemnation?
I think Z-dad’s point is like this. For those of us who already think OO is kefira, this kol koreh is superflous. OTOH, for those people who like OO, the kol koreh annoys them by what they perceive as another example of religious condescension.
So what was gained by it? Who was on the fence that will now change their mind because of this kol koreh? Probably no one. In which case, nothing was gained, but another wedge was introduced. The OO crowd will have more dislike for such Rabbanim, using this as an example of chareidi condescension. And the ability to mekarev these OO to real Judaism became a lot harder.
Z-dad, am I correct in understanding you?
zahavasdad,
It has been interepred that “now we know whose wine we can drink and who can be part of a minyan”
“It has been interpreted that” are weasel words. The only interpretation I’ve seen to that effect came from an Internet sock puppet.
It seems here people dont get my point, Its not what was said, but how it was said
Can you point me to something specific written in the kol korei that bothers you?
“Reject the basic tenets of our faith” is a long-form way of saying they are heretics. And therefore people can’t drink their wine. There are a whole bunch of halachas applicable to heretics, and obviously the statement didn’t enumerate what they all are. It was worded sufficiently to convey the point.
It seems here people dont get my point, Its not what was said, but how it was said and if it was nessasry to say such a thing at all especially since they pose no threat to charedi judaism at all. I doubt OO even exists in lakewood or Monsey
It is a “Oino min Machananu” announcement. See my post above.
So? They pose a threat to mislead frum Yidden, and they distort the Torah. Those are big enough reasons to protest.
So did P.E.A.C.H., and not only was there no protest, they signed on. Same thing with the “Hafkas Kiddushin” Rackman case in Baltimore/Memphis.
neville – MDG says it really well, it isn’t the condemnation of the movement that is being complained about. It is the condemnation of the individuals in the movement. ZD is saying that if many of them are just following their Rabbis, as we are all instructed to do, then why is it right to deal so harshly with them on an individual level ie, inclusion in minyan.
Thank you MDG and SL
Syag: Individual (non-“rabbis”) members of the Conservative and Reform movements are also dealt with as the halacha instructs about people with their status.
if you are talking about individuals who call themselves rabbis but aren’t, than you are not talking about the same thing.
MDG: The announcement is important even for the chareidi public because now most or many chareidim don’t treat as heretics the people the announcement referred to. This announcement therefore informs this public to treat them according to the halacha per their status.
skirpka: I hope you were being sarcastic. Regardless of what each of us holds, we are all yidden and required to look out for one another and not push anyone away. Who are we to judge? It is all up to Hashem.
with all due respect mr. flatbusher , if you read what i wrote i never wrote that we are pushing people away. i wrote that we have to push the ideology away. every individual yid is precious and we don’t push them away, any one of them who wants to come back to torah true yidishkeit there is place for them, any . but we need to take a strong stance against kfira and the group should not be able to spread their poisoned tentacles into normative torah true yidishkeit. and in regards to the kol korei, while to you it may seem trivial and unneeded, for the small town shul that is wavering between a torah true rav or a YCT grad, hits statement will hopefully save that shul from spiritual suicide
Syag: I’m talking about Conservative and Reform members who are laymen and do not purport to be rabbis. They, too, have a halachic status different than a regular Orthodox Jew.
Joseph , what is the Status of a jew who attends The Hebrew institue of Riverdale as a member who sits in the pews?
Syag Lchochma,
it isn’t the condemnation of the movement that is being complained about. It is the condemnation of the individuals in the movement. ZD is saying that if many of them are just following their Rabbis, as we are all instructed to do, then why is it right to deal so harshly with them on an individual level ie, inclusion in minyan.
I agree with your sentiments here about condemnation of the individuals. I think it is vitally important to step carefully and, as the rules for fighting fair states: attack the problem, not the person. B”H most of the Orthodox people I interacted with before I became frum myself behaved in that manner, even though they would say everything that was said in the kol korei about the movement I grew up in.
When I read the kol korei, I do not see the condemnation of people that you, zahavasdad, and others seem to see. To me, it seems to be laser-focused on the OO movement and its leaders. Everything else (the wine, minyan, etc.) is extrapolation, not interpretation.
Furthermore, zahavadad’s point which you repeated (they are just following their leaders) seems to provides the best justification for issuing such a kol korei.
If I am missing something, please let me know.
By not denouncing an incorrect ideology, you actually push people away, you’re just renaming the “away” and calling it otherwise.
When I read the kol korei, I do not see the condemnation of people that you, zahavasdad, and others seem to see.
I, personally, was not referencing the kol korei but rather all the writing style of the threads and posts written about the people in YCT, OO etc.
Furthermore, zahavadad’s point which you repeated (they are just following their leaders) seems to provides the best justification for issuing such a kol korei.
yes, that’s true. But the question was about whether or not they should be given the same treatment as the individuals who are actually developing and disseminating this hashkofo. it wasn’t actually my question, i was trying to reiterate his, but it is a notable point. it is just not without an answer.
don’t think you missed a thing.
well i don’t know if anyone but me noticed but JOSEPH RESPONDED TO MY POST BEFORE IT WENT UP!
Syag, As we discussed a few days ago, I was once called clairvoyant!
My reading of the kol korei is that it is very clear in effectively declaring those who it is referencing as being heretics. It is also clearly and directly referring to the leaders and bodies of the OO movement. It is less clear whether it is also deeming the run of the mill lay adherents of the movement with that status.
Let’s all just stop arguing and start entertaining ourselves and having a good laugh with this:
After all, that’s what the Coffee Room is really about. Having a good old time. That and having frivolous arguments about Zionism.
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