Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Not Sinning For Lack of Opportunity
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September 18, 2015 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #616349WolfishMusingsParticipant
I, personally, don’t know anyone who has ever performed the rites of Ov or Yid’oni. I don’t know anyone who has given their children to Molech. I don’t know anyone who has an Asheira. I don’t think anyone here does either, nor, to the best of my knowledge, does anyone else in the world. These practices have been lost to the mists of history. Even if one *wanted* to perform them, there is no one alive today to show the prospective Ovite how to do the service.
This being the case, is there any reward for observing the mitzvos of not performing the Ov/Yid’oni and other rituals mentioned above? The lack of opportunity pretty much makes it impossible for anyone today to violate these commandments. As such, in what way can I stand before God and say “I kept Your commandment by not asking of Ov.” God would turn to me and say “Well, of course you didn’t. You never had the opportunity.” It’s almost like rewarding a one year old for not engaging in securities fraud. Is there even a point?
I understand, of course, that some of you are saying “Come on, Wolf… is that the best you can do? Give us something that at least has some relevancy in today’s world.” Truth to tell, I think that there is some application to this, even in today’s world. For example, I pride myself on being makpid not to talk during davening/k’rias hatorah. The truth, however, is that during the week I daven in a shul where I have no real friends and sit by myself in the corner. So, in reality, I’m in a position where not talking during davening is pretty easy for me, since the opportunity for socializing during davening really does not exist for me*. That being the case, do I really deserve any reward for it? Can I stand up before HKBH on Yom Kippur and say “See, God, I did what was right, I didn’t talk during davening.” That’s only slightly** more meaningful than “See, God, I didn’t consult with any practitioners of Ov.” In both cases, I lacked the opportunity (either by my temporal placement or my personality) to do anything to the contrary.
So, what’s the story? Is there any benefit to having kept the mitzvos out of lack of opportunity to violate them? Is there any meaning in standing up before God and saying “See, HaShem, I kept your mitzvos, I didn’t consume any piggul this year? See, HaShem, I didn’t talk during davening this year. See, HaShem, I didn’t drink any wine while a Nazir?”
(And, please, don’t answer “d’rosh v’kabel s’char.” I’m not talking about learning, I’m talking about being able to stand up before my Maker and say “I didn’t do X.” My answer is not dependent on whether nor not I’ve learned the subjects under discussion. I can say “I learned about piggul” but that’s not the same as wondering whether or not it’s meaningful to HKBH to say “I kept your mitzvos by not eating piggul.”)
The Wolf
* And before you say “well, get a friend in the shul,” the truth is that I am very reserved and am not the type to go over and initiate contact beyond what is absolutely necessary. Just my personality.
** Granted, it may be *slightly* better since, I suppose, were I so inclined, I could talk during davening, but it is so against my nature to be so openly social that if I don’t lack the opportunity, I certainly lack the desire.
September 18, 2015 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1100371☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI agree, but I’ll change the terminology a bit. There is no schar, as far as I know, for not committing an aveirah for which one has no desire or opportunity.
A mitzvah, however (meaning a “kum va’aseh” – positive action) does bring schar even if it’s enjoyable. Oneg Shabbos comes to mind as an example.
September 18, 2015 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1100372WolfishMusingsParticipantA mitzvah, however (meaning a “kum va’aseh” – positive action) does bring schar even if it’s enjoyable. Oneg Shabbos comes to mind as an example.
Thanks, Daas Yochid.
As it is, I purposely chose negative mitzvos/topics (“Thou shalt nots”) since, by positive ones (Ben Sorer UMoreh, Ir HaNidachas, etc. there *is* a concept of “d’rosh v’kabel s’char.”)
The Wolf
September 20, 2015 3:25 am at 3:25 am #1100373Mashiach AgentMemberthere are other avoda zara’s today that almost everyone bows down to:
example includes money, your technological phones that are glued to you & can’t be separated for you even for a few minutes to daven to hashem & many other things.
Message:
Why is the economy so bad today? Why is the whole world going down? For the past thousands of years there was always Avoda zara in the world-from the molech to the baal to the asheira tree etc…-todays avoda zara is MONEY, we are a servant to money, we serve money, we bow down to money, we let money talk & rule us. Thus we leave Hashem no choice but to take it away from us Rachmana L’tzlan. But you can still save yourself from going down. if a person can use his money the right way & remember that it all comes from Hashem & it was just loaned to him (even though he worked for it), then he is the perfect person to continue holding Hashem’s money.
September 20, 2015 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1100374WolfishMusingsParticipantthere are other avoda zara’s today that almost everyone bows down to:
example includes money, your technological phones that are glued to you & can’t be separated for you even for a few minutes to daven to hashem & many other things.
Yes, that’s a nice bit of rhetoric, but the fact remains that these items are not truly avoda zarah. Were they so, then you would be required to destroy all your money and not have any technology. I’m going to assume that you actually possess money and I know that you are using a computer or phone with Internet access.
You can make the point that we’re too materialistic or too involved with technology without having to go overboard and call it an “avoda zara” when, clearly, that is not the case.
Why is the economy so bad today? Why is the whole world going down? For the past thousands of years there was always Avoda zara in the world-from the molech to the baal to the asheira tree etc…-todays avoda zara is MONEY, we are a servant to money, we serve money, we bow down to money, we let money talk & rule us. Thus we leave Hashem no choice but to take it away from us Rachmana L’tzlan. But you can still save yourself from going down. if a person can use his money the right way & remember that it all comes from Hashem & it was just loaned to him (even though he worked for it), then he is the perfect person to continue holding Hashem’s money.
If you truly believe the wealth and financial well-being of the world and the individuals therein was better in the days when people worshiped Ba’al, Asheirah, Molech, Zeus, et al than it is today, then I would have to conclude that you are woefully ignorant about history, economics and finance.
The Wolf
September 20, 2015 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1100375Sam2ParticipantSam Klein: You know, Ziyuf HaTorah is a form of Avodah Zarah too…
September 20, 2015 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1100376👑RebYidd23ParticipantSeptember 21, 2015 5:12 am at 5:12 am #1100377MammeleParticipantWolfish: one is actually supposed to avoid nisyonos, so becoming more social in Shul as per your scenario is the opposite of what we are supposed to do.
I remember learning (way back in school) that one should imagine being in a situation where literal mesiras nefesh is required and further imagine oneself passing the test. Basically we tell Hashem — and ourself by reinforcing our beliefs– that this is how I would act if tested. This can probably be applied to most of the aviros you mention, so play a historic scenario in your mind if it’s not relevant today and pass with flying colors.
I wouldn’t expect the schar to be the same, but definitely enough to say I haven’t done x without feeling hypocritical.
September 21, 2015 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1100378WolfishMusingsParticipantWolfish: one is actually supposed to avoid nisyonos, so becoming more social in Shul as per your scenario is the opposite of what we are supposed to do.
Well, I’m not going to become more social in shul, but that’s not because of any degree of Yiras Shamayim on my part, but rather because, at the very core of me, I’m an introvert.
The Wolf
September 21, 2015 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1100379JosephParticipantSo to your very core you’re a tzadik. Even your fibers and kishkas simply naturally react like a Torah Yid should to the point in your anivus (which you don’t even recognize as your anivus) you simply attribute it to a natural non-commendable reaction.
September 21, 2015 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1100380Sam2ParticipantI saw somewhere recently (don’t remember where) that we only receive Schar for Mitzvos, not for avoiding Aveiros. So this could all be moot anyway.
September 21, 2015 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1100381JosephParticipantSam, so if I take a detour route out of my way to avoid passing an area where women congregate I got no mitzvah and did no good deed?
September 21, 2015 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1100382kollelmanParticipantRabbi Avigdor Miller used to say something along the lines of:
If one sees a dead animal in the street (cat, squirrel, etc), he should say ‘Hashem I am not going to eat that animal, because You commanded me not to eat it [due to it being a non-kosher animal or nevela]’. One who verbalizes his intentions will then receive a Schar (reward) for his avoidance. If he just walks by, although he surely has no desire to eat the animal, he will not receive any reward for his avoidance of eating it.
I’m not sure of his sources for this, but I definitely heard him say it.
September 22, 2015 1:48 am at 1:48 am #1100383WolfishMusingsParticipantRabbi Avigdor Miller used to say something along the lines of:
If one sees a dead animal in the street (cat, squirrel, etc), he should say ‘Hashem I am not going to eat that animal, because You commanded me not to eat it [due to it being a non-kosher animal or nevela]’. One who verbalizes his intentions will then receive a Schar (reward) for his avoidance. If he just walks by, although he surely has no desire to eat the animal, he will not receive any reward for his avoidance of eating it.
So, should I say at every available opportunity “HaShem, I’m not performing the Ov or Yid’oni rituals now because You commanded me not to. I’m not giving my children to Molech because You commanded me not to. I’m not breaking the bones of the Korbon Pesach because You commanded me not to. I’m not bowing down to an Asheira becuase You commanded me not to…?”
The reason I ask is because, in all these instances, I couldn’t do it even if I wanted to. No one today knows how the Ov and Yid’oni rituals work. There are no more Asheirahs or Molech cults, and so on.
If your twelve year old kid came to you and said “I was a good boy today, tatty, I didn’t launch any nuclear missles at any nations today,” is that a statement truly worthy of some reward?
The Wolf
September 22, 2015 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1100384WolfishMusingsParticipanthe should say ‘Hashem I am not going to eat that animal,
I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out the irony of dealing with the one issue we’ve been discussing that does have practical application (talking during davening) and the manner in which you advocate I gain reward for it (by talking during davening! 🙂 )
The Wolf
September 22, 2015 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1100385newbeeMemberA mitzvah ben adam lechavero you get schar for even if you dont intend to do it as a mitzvah according to many poskim.
September 22, 2015 3:02 am at 3:02 am #1100386Sam2ParticipantJoseph: Maybe not. Maybe all you did was avoid a potential way to lose lots of Schar.
September 22, 2015 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1100387JosephParticipantWhy your equivocation, Sam?
September 22, 2015 7:34 am at 7:34 am #1100388Avi KParticipantWould a ventriloquist’s dummy count as an ov?
September 22, 2015 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1100389Sam2ParticipantJoseph: I’m sure there are Shittos that say that you get Schar for not violating Lavin. That’s why I said maybe.
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