Different havaras

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  • #616347
    Joseph
    Participant

    What is the origination of the various different havaras in klal yisroel? i.e. Litvish, Chasidish, Sefardish, Teimani, etc. When and where did the so-called Litvish havara split from the so-called Chasidish havara? What other havaras exist?

    #1100614
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    They were likely influenced by the local languages that were spoken. I’ve heard from many people (including Rabbonim) that the Teimanim have the closest to the “true” havarah.

    There are things to look at to try and see which are more correct than others. For example, look at the cholem pronunciation. Some pronounce it as “oh”, some (mostly in the yeshiva and chassidish world) use “oy”.

    The Gra wrote that the cholem is a combination of a kamatz katan and a shuruk, and is formed with the lips. That would indicate the “oh” sound, as “oy” is formed with the tongue and the top of the mouth.

    There are also numerous seforim which point out how to be makpid on pronunciation while saying Shema. They point out the words which end with a yud sound and begin with an “open” sound, such as “mitzvosai asher”, saying that one should pause so the yud sound doesn’t carry over and make “asher” sound like “yashar”. They also mention words which ends with a sound and the next word begins with the same sound, so that you have 2 distinct sounds, and not one which runs from one word to the next. They mention each instance, but do not mention the cholems such as v’lo yihyeh and b’ito yoresh. If they were pronounced as “oy”, these should be on the list of places to be careful!

    R’ Henkin zt”l, in Eidus L’Yisrael, says that we should adopt the Sefardic pronunciation of the letters, but not the vowels. R’ Ovadia Yosef zt”l paskened that while one should hear Parshas Zachor in the havarah he/she usually uses in order to be yotzei, anyone can hear it with the Sefardic pronunciation and be yotzei, as it is the “correct” pronunciation.

    As for other havaras, there is also the yekke havarah, the Ladino havarah, and I’m sure plenty of others.

    #1100615
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oy, rachmana litzlan from your deah.

    #1100616
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, the so-called Chasidish havara split from the Litvish ,

    #1100617
    Joseph
    Participant

    lesschumras: That’s factually incorrect. There’s no record of which is older. The so-called chasidish havara long predates chasidim. It’s geographic more than anything else. Some chasidim use the so-called Litvish havara (i.e. Stolin, Lubavitch, etc.) and some non-Chasidim use the so-called Chasidish havara (i.e. Oberlander).

    #1100618
    chatzkal
    Participant

    It has do do with the region and nothing to do with “Chassidish or Litvish”. Lita is a country, not a way of life and there were many Chassidim there. There are many Chassidim such as Slonim, Stolin, and Lubavitch who speak with a so-called “Litvish havara” and there were many non-Chassidim in Poland and Hungary who spoke with a so-called “Chassidish havara”. Even today, if you go to Krakow you will hear the goyim there say “the Ramu”. The Gra in all likelihood said neither “oh” or “oi” but “ay” as the old Litvisher Yidden pronounced it. The local languages influenced all havaros and no one can claim one is more “correct” than the others are. R. Moishe Zt”l has a teshuva about being yoitze hearing other havaras and about saying anything out loud (shliach tzibur, baal koreh, aliya) according to the minhag hamakom. It is entirely possible that there were originally different havaras among the shevatim just as the Ariza”l says that each shevet had a separate nusach hatefila. You see a few places in nach and shas where various people had different ways to pronounce words.

    #1100619
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant
    #1100620
    Joseph
    Participant

    That was a bit different discussion.

    #1100621
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    True. You asked here about the originality as well. I only saw the part as to what they are.

    #1100622
    Redleg
    Participant

    Google “Gefilte Fish Line”

    #1100623
    MDG
    Participant

    It seems that there was a “chassidish” havara in the times of the Gemara. In the section on dreams (B’rachot around 56) is mentions dreaming about a cat. It says there if you call it ‘shunra’ then this …, but if you call it ‘shinra’ then this….

    Or maybe there were different styles of Aramaic.

    #1100624
    simcha613
    Participant

    I heard that that the “s” sound for the saf is actually based on the Teimani pronunciation (a “th” sound) but in Europe they couldn’t pronounce the “th” sound (like old Europeans would say “sank you very much”).

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