Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Minhagim › Different havaras
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September 18, 2015 4:09 am at 4:09 am #616347JosephParticipant
What is the origination of the various different havaras in klal yisroel? i.e. Litvish, Chasidish, Sefardish, Teimani, etc. When and where did the so-called Litvish havara split from the so-called Chasidish havara? What other havaras exist?
September 18, 2015 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1100614DaMosheParticipantThey were likely influenced by the local languages that were spoken. I’ve heard from many people (including Rabbonim) that the Teimanim have the closest to the “true” havarah.
There are things to look at to try and see which are more correct than others. For example, look at the cholem pronunciation. Some pronounce it as “oh”, some (mostly in the yeshiva and chassidish world) use “oy”.
The Gra wrote that the cholem is a combination of a kamatz katan and a shuruk, and is formed with the lips. That would indicate the “oh” sound, as “oy” is formed with the tongue and the top of the mouth.
There are also numerous seforim which point out how to be makpid on pronunciation while saying Shema. They point out the words which end with a yud sound and begin with an “open” sound, such as “mitzvosai asher”, saying that one should pause so the yud sound doesn’t carry over and make “asher” sound like “yashar”. They also mention words which ends with a sound and the next word begins with the same sound, so that you have 2 distinct sounds, and not one which runs from one word to the next. They mention each instance, but do not mention the cholems such as v’lo yihyeh and b’ito yoresh. If they were pronounced as “oy”, these should be on the list of places to be careful!
R’ Henkin zt”l, in Eidus L’Yisrael, says that we should adopt the Sefardic pronunciation of the letters, but not the vowels. R’ Ovadia Yosef zt”l paskened that while one should hear Parshas Zachor in the havarah he/she usually uses in order to be yotzei, anyone can hear it with the Sefardic pronunciation and be yotzei, as it is the “correct” pronunciation.
As for other havaras, there is also the yekke havarah, the Ladino havarah, and I’m sure plenty of others.
September 18, 2015 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1100615popa_bar_abbaParticipantOy, rachmana litzlan from your deah.
September 18, 2015 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1100616lesschumrasParticipantJoseph, the so-called Chasidish havara split from the Litvish ,
September 18, 2015 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1100617JosephParticipantlesschumras: That’s factually incorrect. There’s no record of which is older. The so-called chasidish havara long predates chasidim. It’s geographic more than anything else. Some chasidim use the so-called Litvish havara (i.e. Stolin, Lubavitch, etc.) and some non-Chasidim use the so-called Chasidish havara (i.e. Oberlander).
September 18, 2015 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1100618chatzkalParticipantIt has do do with the region and nothing to do with “Chassidish or Litvish”. Lita is a country, not a way of life and there were many Chassidim there. There are many Chassidim such as Slonim, Stolin, and Lubavitch who speak with a so-called “Litvish havara” and there were many non-Chassidim in Poland and Hungary who spoke with a so-called “Chassidish havara”. Even today, if you go to Krakow you will hear the goyim there say “the Ramu”. The Gra in all likelihood said neither “oh” or “oi” but “ay” as the old Litvisher Yidden pronounced it. The local languages influenced all havaros and no one can claim one is more “correct” than the others are. R. Moishe Zt”l has a teshuva about being yoitze hearing other havaras and about saying anything out loud (shliach tzibur, baal koreh, aliya) according to the minhag hamakom. It is entirely possible that there were originally different havaras among the shevatim just as the Ariza”l says that each shevet had a separate nusach hatefila. You see a few places in nach and shas where various people had different ways to pronounce words.
September 18, 2015 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1100619screwdriverdelightParticipantYou forgot about this one?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/change-of-pronunciation
September 18, 2015 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1100620JosephParticipantThat was a bit different discussion.
September 18, 2015 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1100621screwdriverdelightParticipantTrue. You asked here about the originality as well. I only saw the part as to what they are.
September 24, 2015 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1100622RedlegParticipantGoogle “Gefilte Fish Line”
September 24, 2015 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1100623MDGParticipantIt seems that there was a “chassidish” havara in the times of the Gemara. In the section on dreams (B’rachot around 56) is mentions dreaming about a cat. It says there if you call it ‘shunra’ then this …, but if you call it ‘shinra’ then this….
Or maybe there were different styles of Aramaic.
September 24, 2015 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1100624simcha613ParticipantI heard that that the “s” sound for the saf is actually based on the Teimani pronunciation (a “th” sound) but in Europe they couldn’t pronounce the “th” sound (like old Europeans would say “sank you very much”).
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