The ends don't justify the means

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  • #616049
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Is this a Torah concept?

    #1093416
    Nechomah
    Participant

    I believe this would come under the category of “mitzvah habah al yedei aveirah..” No, the ends do not justify the means.

    #1093417
    Joseph
    Participant

    In the Torah, often, the rule is that the ends do justify the means.

    i.e. lying for shalom.

    A different kind of example that I don’t agree with, but some rule as such, is in the name of kiruv causing someone to be mechallel Shabbos (i.e. inviting him for Shabbos despite knowing he’ll probably drive there.)

    #1093418
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    no

    gadol aveirah lishmah m’mitzvah shelo lishmah

    #1093419
    Sam2
    Participant

    ca: Quotes without context are incredibly dangerous.

    The answer to the original question is that it depends on the ends and the means. There are cases where yes and cases where no.

    #1093420
    Joseph
    Participant

    Exactly. So to answer Torah613: No, it is not a set Torah concept.

    #1093421
    pcoz
    Member

    The ends re-classify the means.

    #1093422
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Means need an end to justify them. E.g., I am walking to the pet store to buy food for my cockatiel. Without the end (which is obtaining food for my bird), going to the store and buying the food is unjustified. If I don’t have a purpose, it is wrong to make the trip.

    #1093423
    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s that got to do with the Torah?

    #1093424
    pcoz
    Member

    Torah is not a legal system, it is a thought system. So sevara which aligns with the Torah is Torah.

    #1093425
    catch yourself
    Participant

    Torah is, first and foremost, a legal system – ?????? ?? ?? ???. Its Law governs every moment of a person’s life.

    It is one which is an expression of Hashem’s Will, and which is designed to train and mold us in a specific mode of thought, but it is a legal system nevertheless.

    I do not understand the idea that “sevara which aligns with Torah is Torah.” Much of the sevara expressed in the literature of Christianity aligns with Torah; would you apply this idea to that as well?

    Rev S.R. Hirsch writes many times that “the ends justifies the means” is a decidedly un-Jewish concept. ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????.

    #1093426
    zogt_besser
    Participant

    ends sometimes justify means. yaakov avinu lies to get eisav’s berachah, yael lures in sisera in order to kill him and save klal yisroel (the source of aveirah lishma), you’re allowed to save someone’s life by breaking shabbos (means) so that they’ll go on and observe more shabbosos (end), at least acc. to one of the gemara’s explanations for pikuach nefesh being docheh shabbos.

    #1093427
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    catch yourself, I like that answer.

    #1093428
    Joseph
    Participant

    Emes L’Ya’akov (Bereishis 27:12):

    #1093429
    Joseph
    Participant

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