We really do need to stop abusing animals

Anyone who comments on this is either callous or just going off topic.

(This one doesn’t count it’s just an observation)

Giving an animal a lobotomy would’t stop any suffering. Besides, what is a genetic lobotomy?

RebYidd23, that’s a cop out answer unless you explain why it’s forbidden, but let’s say we didn’t genetically modify them, but someone else already did.

HaLevi – Mercy, yes, but “respect”? Do you have a source from Torah/Chazal of this concept of “respect” for animals, or is this just an emotional response? From a mussar perspective, you shouldn’t do anything that is outright disparaging to animals because it affects your character and will likely translate to humans too. However, is disrespcting an animal in a way that wouldn’t affect your middos still wrong? Not saying it isn’t; just asking.

i think this is ridiculous. I have always loved animals and have owned many because i don’t have the heart to turn away an abandon creature. But even in my own obsession im mature enough to be aware that it is not about the animals at all. people are personifying animals based on themselves and their own feelings. what actually bothers an animal is minimal in terms of the things labelled by some as abuse.

Barry and Charlie

what do you mean by not tolerating abuse?

does someone really deserve to go to jail for animal abuse?

Because that happens frequently. And IMO opinion I find it difficult to justify.

Syag Lchochma- There’s a big difference between giving animals rights like a person and allowing others to cause animals tzaar. Have you seen what egg farms look like? There are some that are decent, and unfortunately too many that have the hens cramped into buildings with no room to move. They are also treated like machines, tricked into laying three eggs a day. There’s a reason avian flu spread so quickly.

mentsch1: There are Halachas involving Tzar Ba’alei Chayim. Should someone go to jail? It depends on what they do.

Do you feel that abusing animals, or anything else is ok? I don’t get the question.

Are we a civil society or not? Well, maybe I shouldn’t ask that last question anymore.

Why can I kill a mouse in my house but not the cat that keeps on digging up my front lawn

According to Halacha can a person kill a mouse running around his house? According to Halacha can a person kill a cat repeatedly digging up his front lawn?

Joseph

Even if it was against halacha, how does that translate into sending someone to jail.

Stealing is against halacha, but that doesn’t mean I would send them to jail.

If I was on a jury and a 16 year old boy was brought in front of me for shoplifting a chocolate bar, I would not send him to jail

Jail is for the most violent of criminals who can’t be around other people.

I would do what the torah says, make him pay a fine.

People need to be sensitive to animals because we need to be sensitive people, not because they have rights.

Peoples rights should always trump animal rights

I agree with my esteemed father-in-law (BarryLS1) on most points here. Before the Mabul, Chazal tell, us it was Asur to use animals for our own use, or to eat them. Since Noach saved the animals, we gained a certain mastery over them, and the right to eat certain ones – along with the Achrayus of treating them Al Pi Halachah. Additionally, acting cruelly toward Hashem’s Beriyos causes one to become crueller, and Derech Eretz Kadma la’Torah. Therefore, in spirit, I agree with the OP that we must not treat animals cruelly.

I do have two issues with the OP, however, and they are related. One is that I do not currently abuse any animals, and therefore why would I agree that “we” have to stop doing so?

The second is that Hashgacha on the Halachic permissibility of consuming animal products and the conditions under which said animals are held – even if, CH”V, contrary to Halacha – are two different things. A Hashgacha mark on an item on the supermarket shelf does not tell me anything about those conditions, nor should it. Anyone can do their own research, ask their own Shailos, and make their own decisions – and they should – but to imply that “we” are abusing animals because we are buying kosher eggs or meat (assuming that it is kosher!) I find disingenuous.

Rebyidd

I’m not confusing anything

I’m making a point and the point is that Halacha needs to guide our sensitivities not the other way around.

You made an opening point that you can’t be cruel to animals . as the Gemara would say “pshita”

But then you said “I’d you see animals being abused do something about it”

What do you propose? Calling the police?

Then you implied it was against Halacha to buy eggs from certain poultry farms. Do you have proof for this?

I did see that argument being made by the conservative movement when they created their own “hashgacha” that only certifies poultry farms that are “humane”.

I applaud you for your extra sensitivity in the mitzva of tzar bal lchaim

But halachic definitions of what is considered humane is far different from current secular thinking

To build on what mentsch1 has written:

The only possible Isur I can imagine to purchase eggs from a farm that is Over on Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim (again, this has absolutely nothing to do with condoning such practices) would be either Lifnei Iver or Mesayei’a li’Dvar Aveirah. Since, however, they are carrying out their practices of their own volition, and could do so whether or not we buy the eggs (nobody is demanding eggs at a certain price or frequency, and it is definitely not Trei Ibra d’Nahara), these would not seem to apply in such a case.

In the Mishnayos in Shabbos it is clear that animals were force-fed in order to be fattened for slaughter (the only Shaila being if such is Mutar on Shabbos). In the famous story involving Rebbi, a frightened calf being led to the slaughter hid its face in Rebbi’s garment, and he sent it off with a “Go – for this you have been created”. He was punished according to his Darga for being insensitive to the calf’s “feelings” – not because his message was incorrect.

Obviously we have Chiyuvim. The first stage, for those in the position to do something about it, is to clarify what those Chiyuvim are with a competent Halachic authority (which I am not).

mentsch1: PETA wasn’t a consideration in anything I said. They are a bunch of wacho’s with an agenda. They care nothing for people and truth be told, I doubt they really care about animals either.

Weren’t they caught, in their “humane” kennels euthanizing kittens just to save or make more money, so they don’t have to take care of them. The Huffington Post, a liberal paper/web site reported that in 2013.

I was speaking solely from a Torah perspective.

I’m not a PETA fan, but euthanizing animals in shelters is standard practice in the vast majority of animal shelters. There’s a movement, known as no-kill shelters, in which they only “put down” those who are aggressive and dangerous or already dying. But they’ve only succeeded in taking over a small slice of the animal shelter world so far.

Some authorities permit causing extra pain to animals in order to make more money (which is what the various animal welfare abuses in modern factory farms are for.) Other authorities disagree.

It is better to be strict and only buy meat and dairy and eggs from producers who don’t engage in the cruel practices common in the modern industrialized factor farms (like beak-cutting, confining animals in small spaces, etc.)

Our ancestors only ate dairy and eggs and meat from small producers — there were no massive factory farms in the shtetl! Everything was cage-free and grass fed! Factory farms inflict a lot of suffering on animals that we know from experience is not necessary, and these particular techniques are not part of our mesorah. So why get involved in it? To save a bit of money or afford more meat and dairy and eggs? It’s not worth it.

It’s true that some of our ancestors force fed geese, but at that time pate was believed to be an important health food that could provide necessary nutrients. And modern poskim have all banned the practice. Similarly cruel practices such as those involved in veal raising have been banned by Rav Moshe.

We should also work toward legislation, along with non-extremist animal welfare groups, to reduce the worst practices to reduce unnecessary animal suffering.

You know what is sickening?

There are farms which raise cows and chickens, and they absolutely refuse to give the animals antibiotics, even if they are sick! These animals can have festering sores, but no, the farmers will not given them even one antibiotic shot that costs a couple bucks.

You know why? Because then the meat won’t be “organic” and the PETA types won’t buy it.

The PETA types are vegan.

I’ve never considered eating them, but that’s good to know.