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i once saw a Rambam in Mishneh Torah describing the intelligence or consciousness of the celestial bodies. I don’t recall the loshon.
Does anyone know where this is?
Yesodei HaTorah ch 3 or so. Pashtus is he’s directly quoting Aristotle and that’s why this concept isn’t quoted by almost all other Rishonim.
At first I thought you meant the “equivalent” of Daas Torah for those who follow the entertainment industry.
But yes, it is interesting. Te Rambam b’Pashtus means the metaphysical equivalent of these celestial bodies; i.e., the Malach behind the star.
Sam, pashtus? Do you know what that word means? You seem to like using it for the exact opposite of what it really means.
Also, I’m glad to know that Dovid Hamelech had help from Aristotle in composing Tehilim. (??”?)
I’m confused
Feivel and DY, Do you beleive the stars are alive and have daas?
Not there malach (which isnt what the Rambam says) but that they have daas?
In Tehillim it’s also clear that it’s not their malachim.
I have no idea what it means, but that’s what it says (about daas, not about being alive).
In Tehillim it’s also clear that it’s not their malachim.
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Tehillim is poetry. It’s not a science text. Like most poetry, it’s not meant to be taken 100% literally.
The Wolf
“Smeichim b’tzeisom v’sosim b’voam osim b’eimah ritzon konum” I believe mobico is correct about the spiritual equivalent of the stars
I have no idea what it means, but that’s what it says (about daas, not about being alive).
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Tehillim is poetry. It’s not a science text. Like most poetry, it’s not meant to be taken 100% literally.
Wolf, you of all people should recognize the possibility of Silicon or Plasma based life forms. Just because we are unable to detect their sentience does not mean that they don’t have it (perhaps they simply choose not to exercise it).
To quote Perek Shira (and the Pasuk in Nechemya): Kochavim Omerim:
??????-???? ?????-?, ?????????–?? (??????) ???????? ???-??????????? ?????? ??????????? ?????-??????? ??????? ?????-?????? ??????? ?????????? ?????-?????? ??????, ???????? ???????? ???-???????; ??????? ???????????, ???? ??????????????.
So I would say that Pashtus, the Rambam is learning from a Pasuk.
Feivel
Ithink this has been discussed ad nauseum, and there is no real information here. I was just curios what you believed regarding starts having life/daas.
Thank you for answering.
Dy too.
(although I should have)
You should have. Had it not been you, I would have thought you were bringing it “L’kanter”.
Why don’t you just close the thread?
Feivel: There is no need for the snark. The Rambam himself says that he quotes Aristotle. This part of the nature of the stars is a basis of Aristotelean metaphysics. It’s not a stretch to think he’s quoting Aristotle here. It’s the simplest explanation for this concept.
Now, the Rambam did not quote those things from Aristotle that he knew went against his tradition. The Rambam was certainly not an atheist, after all. However, he did think that Aristotle got most things right, include almost all of his theories on physics and metaphysics. So when the Rambam quotes an idea that is a direct Aristotelean idea, why not assume it comes from Aristotle? Yes, he thought it doesn’t go against the Torah, and that matters a lot. But it doesn’t mean that Aristotle isn’t the Makor (of course, Aristotle being the Makor in no way makes it wrong, either). And it also explains why the concept wasn’t quoted by other Rishonim. The Rishonim, in very large part, kinda just ignore the ideas in the Rambam that came from Artistotle.
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Tehillim is not “poetry”,
Oh, for heaven’s sake – it IS poetry, despite your attempts to state otherwise. Perhaps you read the word “only” where I did not write it?
The Wolf
Wolf, the Rambam seems to take it literally.
Sam, the pashtus is that he got it from the Torah.
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