American Pharoah: Kiddush Hashem or Not

It’s a complete Chillul Hashem for them to be participating on Shabbos. And Zilzul Shabbos and Chillul Shabbos. To go there on Shabbos even if they hadn’t participated, let alone participate on Shabbos.

I believe they made both a kiddush Hashem and a chillul Hashem.

A kiddush Hashem was made in that they didn’t drive there on Shabbos.

A chillul Hashem was caused by the issurim d’rabbonon which were violated. I do think amira l’akum is an issue; it’s assur to ride a b’heima on Shabbos. The prize money is schar Shabbos. There may be workarounds (e.g. a shtar mechirah) but I haven’t heard such a thing, and at the least it would be maris ayin.

Someone (ZD?) pointed out that the whole idea of involvement in the gambling business is improper. I hear the tayna.

I’ve seen some try to say that shvisas b’hemto is an issue, but I don’t think any melachah was done by the b’heima.

I’m pretty sure Kapusta isn’t too happy that this thread was posted. 🙁

I do think amira l’akum is an issue; it’s assur to ride a b’heima on Shabbos.

I believe it could be argued that the jockey would be “Adayta D’Nafshei”, as the jockey wants to win the race.

The prize money includes all of the pre-race work needed to enter, so that would be Havla’ah.

No it doesn’t. The prize money is for winning the race.

dy,

thats like saying the money the caterer gets for providing the kiddush is for setting up the kiddush

DY: I was told he got around the prize money by selling it to a Goy somehow.

And I think GAW is right on the Amira L’Akum issue. The jockey’s name will go down in history for winning the Triple Crown. He wants this as much as the owner does. It’s not like he’s being hired to do a job. He was selected for a privilege that he was ecstatic to be given.

????? ?????? allows a ????? to benefit from work done for him by a ??? on ???, IF the ????? did not specifically require that the work be done on ???. Once the ????? indicates that the work must be done on ???, this ???? is out the window. Obviously, this includes a job which can only be done on ???.

The concept of ????? ?????? is that the ??? chooses to do the work on ??? because there is some benefit to him in doing it on ???, but that as far as the ????? is concerned, he could have chosen to do it during the week, or to do the same job on ??? without any ??????? (this is why the hired help can use hot water to wash the dishes on ???).

????? also does not apply, as DY correctly explained.

The real problem here, however, is not ????? or ??? ???. The real problem is that this is a total rejection of the sanctity of ???. The more a person bends over backwards to circumvent the ????, the more he shows that he views ???? as an onerous burden to be cast aside at the first chance. Please refer to Rav Belsky’s letter about the Kosher Switch.

“So you’re being mattir all amira l’akum where the nochri wants to succeed at his job? ?? ????? ??? ???.”

Kind of. Have you ever been to a Shul on Shabbos that that the lights are off at night and back on in the morning? The reason the Poskim mattir davening in such a shul is that the Goy is doing it for his job not for the Jews.

Thanks, DY.

To be sure, my comment was not directed at the particular family involved (whom I do not know at all). As you point out, whatever accommodations they did make for Shabbos may well constitute great sacrifice on their part, for who they are.

Nor do I believe that the conscious motivation behind any such activities or actions is the denigration or dilution of Shabbos. I don’t imagine that anyone was thinking to himself, “Wow! The Kosher Switch! This is finally my opportunity to really exhibit my distaste for Shabbos!”

My point was that, for many people (and again, this depends on variables such as background and upbringing), such conduct belies a subconscious, or simply unknowing, lack of appreciation of Shabbos.

As far as the lights, I would like to point out that if the ??? was told to leave them on and he did not follow instructions, then he may even be told directly on ??? to turn them back on. In general, though, you’re right that the lights are on timers (which, of course, ?? ??? held to be no better than a ???). Where I daven, the lights stay on the entire ???.

For the gambling aspect of all this, I often wonder if gambling in today’s society would be treated differently. I honestly do not know what it was like years ago, but today gambling is mostly a form of recreation. People pay admission to go to parks, and people pay for the enjoyment of a race or slot machine. The money is all paid in advance, so they avoid issues of ??????, and gambling (like all forms of recreation) is a huge part of our economy, which may mitigate the problem of ???? ??????? ?? ????.

Whether or not it is technically ????, it certainly does not seem like the type of thing that fits in to the lifestyle the ???? expects from us.

DY

Actually its the other way around, Casinos are very classy and horse tracks are very seedy. Even if you have never been to one you must have passed by one.

If you go to Aqueduct, the casino part is very nice and the race track is seedy.

I also think it says somewhere in the Gemorah a gambler was invalid as an eid because he is taking money from someone else who doesnt really want to give it to him and frankly its also Genevas daas as gambling tricks people into thinking they will become rich instantly (The NY Lottos commericals)

ZD – As noted in my first post in this thread, the ?????? issue to which you refer is not a problem because the money is paid up front.

DY – You’re right, I momentarily forgot that Rav Moshe did not extend his opinion on timers to lights. However, if I remember correctly, this was not for any clear Halachic distinction; it was rather in deference to what had already become widespread practice. His reason for disallowing the use of timers was that it was included in the ???? of ?????.

DaasYochid- Thats not the reason as the Mishnah Berurah says we are not Meikel like that Rama. I agree it is not Poshut but rov of the Poskim are Mattir based on what I said(some are Mitzareif mitzvah lav lehenos nitnu).

The real problem here, however, is not ????? or ??? ???. The real problem is that this is a total rejection of the sanctity of ???. The more a person bends over backwards to circumvent the ????, the more he shows that he views ???? as an onerous burden to be cast aside at the first chance.

you are correct but the problem is assuming that this is the case. As I said above, not everyone was raised with the same understanding of sanctity of Shabbos.

Not everyone who drives an RV to a racetrack understands all the problems that have been clearly attributed to them above. I remember a couple friends who were in Indiana University and proud to be shomer shabbos yidden (only ones on campus wearing kippas despite being harassed for it). When the little indy race came on Shabbos, they pre-paid their tickets and submitted them in advance and went to the race empty handed thinking they were observing shabbos appropriately. They would have been insulted by your take of their observance level because they never learned any different. We were taught Shabbos laws very differently.

It would be appropriate to sweetly educate them of their error and lovingly teach them the appropriate way to uphold the sanctity of Shabbos.

I was being 100% very sincere.

It most certainly was. In context, that comment was a response to your comment above it.

Your rudeness doesn’t reduce one iota my large Ahavas Yisroel for you and any fellow Yid. This, too, is very sincere. Even when you’re mistaken (yet sincere) my respect for you isn’t reduced. Btw, you initially admitted that you “don’t know” if I was sincere.

CY, R’ Moshe is saying that because it was already accepted in many places in Europe to have a nochri turn on the light (lantern), the idea of having lights go on is not zilusa. He might have said the same thing about Shabbos clocks having become accepted, but that doesn’t seem to be what he actually said.

Interestingly, the prior teshuvah is about the havla’ah of bank interest, which is what I compared the prize money to.

Literally, that sentence identifies the action, but doesn’t say the reason.

The reason is stated in the sentance which follows:

??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???”? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?”? ???”? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????”? ????? ????? ???”?

Perhaps it would be sufficient to be mattir based on the ??? ???? of timers themselves, but that is not what he literally says.

My initial reaction to cherrybim was based on the way you’re reading it, but I changed my mind when looking more carefully.

If what you mean is that he would not have used that sevara on its own, but relied on it not to asser what was already done, I can agree to that. It would nicely explain his wording.

I see it a bit differently than that.

His equation of timers to a”l is not absolute, otherwise he would asser lights for those who follow the R’ma and M”B for a”l. To be mattir, he is taking the position (in deference to the accepted practice of using timers) that that a Shabbos clock is not amira l’akum l’maaseh.

He would still have assered because of zilusa, except for the fact that some communities in Europe used a”l regularly.

Hence, he holds it’s muttar to use a timer l’chtchilah, without a tzorech gadol, even in the house, but only for lights. However, it is assur to use a nochri, even for lights, except for tzorech gadol.

This weeks FJJ had a halachic analysis of the issues of owning a horse which runs on Shabbos.

FWIW, my opinion is like that of Rav Lefkowitz, not the letter writers who talked about shvisas behemto.