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I must say that I have noticed an odd cultural norm amongst some chassidisher tishin shabbos, is everybody sing as loud as you can,as hard as you can. (if kids hysterically yell..all the better), AND as off tune as you can. If that doesn’t wake the neighbors, then join hands, stand up and jump on the spot up and down, with a dramatic thud. Everyone togther now.
I once commented to the host “if i had have sang like your son is singing now, at my mother’s dinner table – I would have gotten a good royal slap”.
Its chuzpah. Its not enjoyable, and its irritably annoying.
My friends’ goyisher neighbor called her up and said “What world do you people live in?…I mean we went to our church services too as a child, and we came home, and that was it. The singing and services didn’t continue on into the late night, with every family member screeching at the top of their off tune lungs”..
I really have to admit I didn’t feel any sympathy for my friend, in fact I second this notion of the neighbor. Minus the church part. I mean sing, fine, its shavout, but sing, beautifully, softly, with grace. And for goodness sakes, remember we are in galus, with neighbors!
Yeah, I know. Perhaps they were just carried away, totally swept away with the spirit of the day – the receiving of the Torah. Perhaps as enthusiastic as the original heroes of old – those who went wild over it – ???? ?????.
Our religion, as in contrast to those others, is a LIVE RELIGION, with a live God, ????? ????. We do things besimcha, with joy and enthusiasm, and indeed, sometimes step out of “line”. It’s OK, if meant in earnest, for Avodas HaShem.
Being inconsiderate of others is not Avodas HaShem.
I didn’t imply to be inconsiderate, just to allow one to express oneself… y’know..
If your hometown team won the world series, would you tell them to celebrate somberly, quietly, pleasantly… softly with grace.. sure! When excitement is in the air it takes on a life of its own.. Yidden have HaShem and His Torah to be excited about.. ???? ?? ???.. ???? ?? ????? ???.. ???? ??’ ?? ???..
That’s what Rabbi Miller ??”? writes; a person is discerned by what he gets excited over. We go wild with enthusiasm for HaShem and His Torah, His Mitzvohs, others get excited over the world series, a sensation, a new singer, actor etc.
Little Froggie: in a residential area, yes, I would. I’ve had times where neighbors were having a party outdoors, running very late, and causing a lot of noise. I called the police. The town has a noise ordinance, and they should be following it.
Besides, why do you compare this to people celebrating the World Series? Shouldn’t we, as Jews, hold ourselves to a higher standard?
LF: Yeah, and those who go too far in celebrating their world series victories go to jail. Being enthusiastic does not permit being rude or inconsiderate. If you’re keeping the neighbors awake, Yatzah Scharcha B’hefsedcha.
But Rabbi Miller, zt”l, has many times told the story of the Rabbi walking down Rav Millers street talking loudly in learning. He said he might be a Talmid Chochom but he isn’t a mensch. He is guilty of gazaila (sleep of others) which cannot be returned in this world. Ha Rav Miller was a big proponent of being wild with excitement over Hashem, but not when damaging others. He emphasized that this is how to learn Seder Nezikin, it’s not only about cows and pits.
Were the neighbors actually disturbed, or more befuddled or amused?
I’ve had times where neighbors were having a party outdoors, running very late, and causing a lot of noise. I called the police. The town has a noise ordinance, and they should be following it.
Would you have called police if they were having the party indoors playing music a bit loud and dancing?
If you’d have read my remark properly, you would have found the “I didn’t imply to be inconsiderate”. Of course I’m not implying in any shape or form to step on another’s toes, to awaken another, or etc.
Just the idea that as Jews we ought to be quiet, solemn, calm, sober, dull… No. We’re allowed and actually enjoined to sing and dance emotionally and enthusiastically about HaShem, His Torah. We’re into a LIVE religion. Exactly like what David Hamelech told Michal, when she complained that he was embarrassing himself for going too wild. (Michal was punished for having spoken thus to David). Was David rude? Did he wake anyone up? No. He was wild and loud. And he was commended for that.
When we Daven, we shukel (shake), as opposed to the ‘neighbors’ who stand (or sit or kneel – don’t know – never been there to any ‘minyan’) still, composed, unmoving, motionless… Because we have a live Neshamah in us, and we’re connecting to our LIVE GOD!!!
Don’t get me started on kumzitzes
I guess LF you condone the Brezlov who have been known to break out in the middle of the street and sing and dance
ZD:
Not quite. And proof that you can tell left from right, is the fact that you brought it up. I’m ‘talking’ about an earnest outpouring of one’s emotions, feeling, feeling truly ecstatic about HaShem. Enthusiasm backed by sechel, a combined mixture of the two.
Not anything these seem to portray. The moment one sees these Na Na’ signs / slogans/ graffiti , one knows the truth…
LF: Meh. Who told you it was Muttar for anyone to ever sing? 😛
LF- The halacha clearly states that one must remain still while davening. One of my pet peeves is when people do these ridiculous movements while davening, which can be distracting. I have even heard people clap during Shemona Esrei, which is clearly nuisance to the tzibur.
We’ve had these discussions, time and again. I’m not refering to the Amidah, rather to the rest. And one does NOT remain still when davening the Amidah too. (Which Halacha states to remain still???)
As to your pet peeve, maybe one should not look around while in middle of davening… it won’t distract you if you’re not looking…
One of my pet peeves is the ridiculous habit of people to look around during Davening, to get peeved at someone else doing ridiculous movements.
While clapping I agree with you is clearly a nuisance to the tzibur, I’ve heard of seforim (not seen, just heard) condoning the movements some make during Davening. They say it’s someone’s last attempt to be mechaven, to pray in earnest with concentration, like the movements one would make in midst of drowning, trying to grab on to anything… Nothing to poke fun at.. Especially if the ones peeved do not Daven properly…
But the main part of my post was the rest of Davening, while singing the praises of HaShem, extolling Him, thanking Him for all His goodnesses, it ought to be with “chius”, a “bren”, enthusiastic outpouring of the heart… Read what Rabbi Miller ??”? writes and says, I don’t make things up (generally).
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