Suffering Due to Previous Gilgul

Are we really supposed to judge people that way? That’s very hard to believe.

newbee – I think his explanation is not so simplistic. I don’t find it so hard to understand, I think it makes more sense to me than thinking suffering is random.

But I think there is much more to it, such as a neshoma has the chance to see in advance what his life will be like and he agrees to it. I was taught that a neshoma that could not resist certain temptations and could not get into Gan Eden because of it was offered the opportunity to come back to this world to try to do tshuva. The neshama, fully understanding the strength and pull of a taiva, begged to be born with a body that will not even be capable of falling prey to that temptation. For that reason, a neshama who fell prey to znus may beg to be blind, or disfigured. A thief may beg to be handicapped.

I agree with Avi K. The concept is true al pi kabbalah, but there could be any number of explanations for the things we see and experience, and it’s quite dangerous and wrong to judge what a person did in a previous gilgul based on his current situation.

Shaychus- I thought that “lo kam beYisrael keMoshe od”…

Didn’t realize we had a Rav of equal stature in our dor.

Ramban mentions gilgulim in this context, as a way to explain suffering that is otherwise difficult to explain.

The Arizal was known to tell people whose neshama they had, and to explain the reasons for their present gilgul.

However, since there are so many different possible reasons for any suffering, we should not assume it is for a particular reason in any particular case.

Of course, if there is any way we can relieve or prevent someone’s suffering, then we should do so. We should never say, “Oh well they had it coming to them so we shouldn’t do anything to help.” Perhaps concerns about this tendency were one of the reasons why kabbalistic teachings about gilgulim were concealed until the time of the publication of the Zohar.

And while were at it “what do you have to say about the view expressed by” Moses – Loi Sirtzach? I mean come on? What a ridiculous thing to say? He must have been high on Sinai? What were those tablets he was taking?

Gotta love those puns at the end, Shuychus, but I think your totally overreacting. The source of the confusion is, I believe, that you are confusing this Rabbi Mizrachi with ? ????? ????? (???), the Kadmon who is one of the foremost Meforshei Rashi.

I don’t know who this Rabbi Mizrachi is or what he said, but if he is somebody from our dor, then I must repeat some sentiments I have posted a couple of weeks ago. (Note: I have never heard of Rabbi Mizrachi, and I haven’t heard the quote. If he is coming from a Mesorah tracing to sources which are reliable, I take my words back.)

Click here

This has nothing to do with Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi. He is merely letting you know what the Sefarim say about this. His style is very black and white which leaves little room for nuisance.

The Ben Ish Chai writes a story of a person suffering for a past Gilgul and concludes that we see that ?? ????? ????? is not only with your own generation, it is even with past generations.

The Arizal expanded on the concept of Gilgul and it became much more complex. There is a while network of relationships between Neshomos.

There are different questions to answer about suffering. Why it exists, why this person, what is gained, what causes it, why this time, and why these people. There are different answers to the different questions. Gilgul is but one answer. It is part of the picture. It is meant to be aware that it is not random not as an explanation to any particular case.

Gilgul is from Toras Nistar. It wasn’t mentioned openly until after the Ramban. The Ramban himself spoke about it but refused to do so openly. Therefore, lack of point blank reference in the Gemara is not an argument. However, the Ramban does read this into the words of the Gemara.

Any and all students of Kabbalah know of and hold of Gilgul. It is in the Zohar Hakadosh. Without Kabbalah we wouldn’t know of it, wrote the Ramban. To quote a Gadol who might have been unaware of Kabbalah, and is drawing exclusively from Nigleh, does not prove any point.

Moreover, as I said, it doesn’t solve the whole issue. It is merely one piece in the puzzle. Also, this is used to answer Tzaddik Vera Lo, which is very uncommon, according to the Ramban.

Don’t view it as if this guy did something wrong that he, or anyone, doesn’t remember. He has a Neshama that needs rectification, because of whoever had it last. See again what I quoted from the Ben Ish Chai.

Yissurim Shel Ahava also serves a purpose. Why would you feel bad for the guy. Do you feel bad for a laborer who is getting paid nicely? On the other hand, even if know how someone actually earned a punishment that is not a reason not to feel bad for him. We feel bad that he did whatever it is that he did, and earned and received this punishment. That is how the Medrash Eicha describes the crying of HKBH.

Besides, this person is not a Rasha now no matter what he was in the past life. Should we view him any worse than a person who did Teshuva? Often, they also get Yesurim to be Mechaper or to elevate them, which is part of Yesurim Shel Ahava.

Punishing us in this life for the sins in a previous life doesn’t make sense because you don’t learn anything from the punishment I don’t believe HKBH would mete out a punishment that has no lesson. How would one do teshuva for something they have no memory of doing.

DY i would think in the next world we would have recollection of our misdeeds and understand why we were being punished how is that comparable to being punished for a misdeed in a previous lifetime.

Goq, it’s still a tikkun. Who says you need to know what you did wrong for the tikkun to work?

ZD, the parents, grandparents, and siblings may need a kapparah for things they did in this or a previous life.

Not at all. The Kuzari proof is about the revealed Torah. Nistar is, by definition, a hidden part of the Torah.

Again, that’s true of something which is supposed to be revealed, but not of something which was supposed to be hidden.

Again, that’s true of something which is supposed to be revealed, but not of something which was supposed to be hidden.

Then how do you know that someone didn’t just make something up at some point in history and claim “Oh, well, that was supposed to be hidden until now…?”

The Wolf

proof to the wolf

till the late Rishonim gilgulim isn’t mentioned as a correct belief

(Rav Saadya, Ravad 1,)

and it seems even after the Ramban most rishonim argued (rashba 418, ikarim, rivash 157 in name of Ran)

We know that tzadikim today suffer for the sins of the klal (non-tzadikim) today. So how is the above any harder or easier to understand than this?

Newbee –

First of all, R Mizrachi was being illustrative, not literal, which is the very reason that I said before that these things cannot be presented in summary snippets.

While it is easier for you to hear “I don’t know” as a better option, there are many who find that answer sorely lacking.

Lastly, and I say this sincerely as an agree to disagree point, I could never consider it human nature to look at someone in any way because of who they may have been in a past life. I cannot fathom anyone who has the depth to understand that system to also be capable of such shallow thoughts. I think the idea of looking at someone with judgement of who their spiritual self may have been in a past life is ridiculous. I know you disagree, but it personally find it unfathomable.

Adding the dimension that they may be imperfect for the specific reason that they have almost reached perfection, and that you would never know which case applies to them, it doesn’t make any sense

Oh really? The concept of gilgulim and reward and punishment is simple enough for an 8 year old to understand? Than why do you seem to be having so much trouble with it? Why does everyone have so much trouble with it? Even in the way you tell over his words it doesn’t seem like you have found clarity, why would you think a child can understand this?

newbee – (thank you so much for clarifying, btw)

That doesn’t sound like human nature to me, that sounds like really lousy chinuch!

Now about the Gemara.

You mentioned a Gemara earlier that seems to contradict the one you mentioned later. The first one says that if you are suffering you should check for sins or Bittul Torah, and as a last resort, Yissurim Shel Ahavah. The other Gemara says that we don’t know why good people suffer.

So, we must say, and it is obvious to learn, that the latter is about those few cases where everything was ruled out (including, perhaps, Yisurim Shel Ahavah), while the former is the general rule.

Now, the Gemara says that Moshe Rabbeinu asked for three things, one of which was to understand Tzaddik Vera Lo Rasha Vetov Lo. The Gemara first says that he was answered that only those who are children of Reshaim suffer. Then the Gemara says that the answer is that only a Tzaddik She’eino Gamur will suffer.

If you look at the Gemara you see that Reb Meir didn’t actually address the suffering of good people. He said that Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t get his answer on the issue of Tzaddik Vera Lo Rasha Vetov Lo because a Rasha can get completely undeserved goodness. As the Ramban explains in Shaar Hagemul, Hashem is good and will sometimes dole out undeserved goodness.

The Ramban seems to learn that this Gemara is the usual answer. Usually only a Tzaddik She’eino Gamur will suffer for those few sins that he has, as the Gemara explains in Keddushin. However, says the Ramban, Sefer Iyuv is about even a Tzaddik Gamur suffering.

According to this Ramban, both Gemaros are in league. They are both saying that all, or almost all, suffering is from sin, however few and small. The very uncommon completely undeserved suffering, without any sin whatsoever, is what Sefer Iyuv is addressing. And Elihu’s answer is Gilgul according to the Ramban (and any other Mekubal), or Malach Meilitz mentioned in Shabbos 32 according to the Rambam IIReadC.

Others learn that the Gemara is hinting to Gilgul by referring to the Tzaddik with baggage as Eino Gamur. This satisfied the Derech of the Rama Mifano, quoted and promoted by the Shela Hakadosh, that the Maskana doesn’t really throw away the Havva Amina. In this case, Tzaddik ben Rasha refers to his previous Gilgul.

Interestingly, Iyuv himself has a reason for his suffering according to the Gemara. He was quiet by Paroh when they were discussing the Jews. He didn’t speak up up in their benefit. So what is his question? Perhaps that was in a previous Gilgul. I have another Pshat as well, though.