Does becoming MO make you rich?

The MO schools charge an arm and a leg per kid. So MO families often can’t afford more than two kids (as the second kid will already cost them their second arm and leg.) So while the MO are indeed monetarily wealthier than the Chareidim, they end up just using their extra money to give to their schools. Meanwhile the Chareidim have more kids (averaging over six per family) despite not being monetarily wealthy. [Which accounts for why the Chareidim are experiencing explosive growth, so much so that that by now the vast majority of Orthodox Jews are Chareidim.] So whose better off you tell me?

I know a MO fellow who had to move to Eretz Yisroel because he has a lot of kids, and even running two successful businesses, couldn’t afford the tuitions in the U.S.

It would have been cheaper for him to become chareidi.

If you were hareidi and become “modern orthodox” you will probably be better off economically. If you were anything not shomer mitsvos (conservadox, conservative, reform, assimilated) becoming “modern orthodox” will almost certainly create severe economic problems. Once you give up working on Shabbos and yuntuf, and keeping kosher both at home and at work, you pay a serious economic penalty. The line where the penalty kicks in is the one the separate “Modern orthodox” from non-frum. Having to adjust your work schedule to the Torah calendar seriously limits career options. Keeping kosher even if only the “ingredient kosher” that lets you have a tuna salad while your colleagues are having steak, means you suffer serious restrictions.

Having children isn’t really a function of “Modern orthodox” vs “Hareidi” – from the point of view of most Jews (who are not Shomer Mitsvos), the “Modern orthodox” also have “too many” children. Education for “Modern orthodox” is probably more expensive since they want both a Jewish and secular education (and good universities are vastly more expensive than a yeshiva).

I believe many hareidim don’t realize how much mesiras nefesh the Modern Orthodox have, and it is probably all the more painful since they are so close to being able to benefit from the outside world, but are just inside the line. They are inches away from being able to grab the golden ring of the secular world, and are refusing to grab it.

popa_bar_abba: The average MO is hardly better off than the average non-orthodox Jews. Being better than the other major ethnic groups (European Americans, African Americans, Hispanics) doesn’t prove anything. The Modern Orthodox are better off than the Hareidim, but the secular Jews (the ones who work on Shabbos and eat cheeseburgers, not to mention many other things we don’t talk about) are humongously ahead of the Modern Orthodox.

Akuperma, that’s not what I’m saying at all.

FFBT; Maybe your parents can’t afford seminary. Also, how much do your parents earn a year? You know seminary is very expensive.

Efshar farkert – maybe being rich makes you Modern Orthodox.

There’s an article floating around, which I haven’t read, saying that all MO people are rich.

I don’t know if that is true

Anytime you read something that states “All [type of people] are [adjective],” there is a 99.9% that what you are reading is incorrect and drivel.

The Wolf

Golfer, no. To whatever extent I meant it seriously, I meant:

A) You can never prove cause and effect from two ideas coinciding.

B) It’s hard to be poor with kids and be MO, so some may choose not to be (in either direction).

The article popa referred to actually suggested that some who can’t afford it go OTD (more make aliyah, as I had mentioned).

The point of the article was to lament that the high cost of being MO drives people towards high paying professions, and there are therefore too few people in professions which allow for more expression and creativity.

I did mention that, actually.

So you send your kids to Darchei, and they are no longer MO.

And here I thought Darchei was basically MO.

That’s probably because of all the poor Far Rockaway MO families who can’t afford HAFTR. 🙂

LOL 🙂

Darchei (I thought, correct me if I am wrong) has Regents, AP courses, and (as compared to a Yeshiva like Riverdale or Philly) a strong English department, as well as the vocational department we had discussed earlier. Doesn’t that make them MO?

No, I think there are lots of people who are clearly definable as MO or yeshivish aside from their views on Zionism, it’s just hard to pin where the line is.

Interesting tzu shtell. There, though, there’s a necessity to categorize, to fit into the category of legal or illegal. I don’t see a compelling reason to do so here.

If we were discussing frum vs. not frum, we would need (and in fact the halachah does define) more specific parameters, because there are nafka minas, such as drinking their wine and.

DY

Ive heard I forget from whom, (Ive heard it on a few occasions)the line between MO vs charedi being primarily over 3 things:

1) Zionism

2) Secular education (outside of parnasa)

3) Daas Torah

A fourth which is probaly less than the the first three, but is probably evolving

4) Role of women

To me this seems like a good line though obviously not absolute.

ubiquitin – There is a chasm between “MO” (even as others define it) and Charaidi (and most American Orthodox probably fall between).

Gavra, I try not to denigrate, I rather disagree more often with certain actions I find objectionable, which some may choose to (or not) associate with MO. I probably could define MO in a vague sense, or give examples, I just don’t think it’s a productive endeavor.

I think ubiquitin’s #2 and #3 are likely to lead to some of those objectionable things, but there’s no absolute correlation.

Rabbi Bender would not agree with Darchei being considered MO. They require black hats, velvet yarmulkas, and white shirts. I don’t know of any MO schools that require that.

R’ Bender is a visionary, who realizes that it’s unrealistic to expect boys to learn for a long time, and then be able to support a family. He makes sure the groundwork is there for when his talmidim need to go work. That should be the norm for all Jews.

They require black hats, velvet yarmulkas, and white shirts. I don’t know of any MO schools that require that.

No true Scotsman…

Now that we’re done with that, how do we define “rich”?

What a nutty misconception. There are many middle class MO neighborhoods, ie: West Hempstead, Oceanside, Staten Island, etc. We may make more money because we are schooled in skills that bring in better salaries, HOWEVER, our “Jewish” expenses are the same with the exception of Yeshiva tuition. Ours is much, much higher because we expect and demand an excellent education for our children.

In my neighborhood, both parents work, often both full-time without live in housekeepers.

We may not have families with 6+ children, but there is not a family in my neighborhood with less than 4 kids in a family.

Most of our kids do not go to sleep-away camp for a full summer, because we all pay full tuition. Vacations are stay-cations OR a visit to grandparents in Florida (no hotel or restaurant expenses) Most of our Yeshivas have uniforms as well, so our children do not wear expensive clothes. Our girls babysit, our boys shovel snow, and we all drive new cars that we keep forever.

Flatbush is NOT typical of MO and neither are the 5 Towns, because too many of these couples are living on Mommy & Daddy’s money. Their parents buy their houses, the kids clothes, and help pay tuition. They are not typical of MY lifestyle.

Torah613Torah- B”H there are plenty of ways to afford Seminary & my parents are willing to put some of their money towards it… meaning I too, will have to put some money towards it. Same story with college.

I don’t know of any non MO or MO (however it’s defined) who marry ??? ????.