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I wanted to know if its assur to go to a mixed gym. If anyone can add their thoughts on this I would really appreciate it. Thx.
Absolutely assur for both men and women. Men because of the pritzus they’ll see and women because of their state of undress in front of men.
if men are going to a gym to see pritsus then they are better off in front of a computer with full web access.
people who go to a gym go to exercise not to look around. although for a woman i feel its different.
It doesn’t matter why they’re going, it matters if they’ll see it. And they will.
1. Tznius (immodesty) – since in most countries people participate in a gym in short clothing
2. Pritsus (mixing) – even if everyone was fully dressed (e.g. wearing a sweat suit), there still is the issue of mixing of men and women
What if they are blind?
If it’s truly assur, it’s such a shame that someone can’t make an affordable kosher gym in Flatbush. Nothing fancy needed, just the basic cardio and weight machines.
FriendInFlatbush, if it’s not “truly assur”, but nevertheless people’s yiras chet keeps them away, is that not enough of a reason to want a kosher gym?
RebYidd23, if the women are blind, it’s still a problem.
I think you are best to ask a rav and not rely on the comments here.
flatbusher: Should we ask our rav if we can steal or can we rely on posters that say it’s assur?
Lior – your deliberately inflammatory posts on this thread are getting no further attention from me.
DY- I have a problem with your first post. What is seen may matter too but why you are going is the primary question. To me. Where are the hilchos shmiras einayim in sh”a a btw? A serious question. My main point of reference otherwise is the gemara in bb regarding clotheswashers.
This is not as clearcut as you are making it. If things were so clearcut, all rabbonim would have to do is publish a book of issurim and never have to field a shaila. From your comments, it seems either you never have gone to a gym and are relying on what you think goes on, or you have gone to one that is crowded with both sexes. In addition, a person’s individual situation may come into play, so it’s easy assur anything without knowing all the details. But I would never rely on any psak posted here.
I posted something that could be considered inflammatory, not Lior.
There’s nothing controversial about the answer to this question. It’s straightforward. Hence the comparison to questioning stealing.
??? ??? ?? ????.
Why you go does not make a difference. It doesn’t make a difference when it comes to following in the river. The washers is a case where you don’t necessarily have to see them but going that way is putting yourself in trouble. If you purposely choose that route you are a Rasha. If there is no other way you may pass but still not look.
??? ????????? ??????. By going you will see. By seeing it will do what seeing does.
There’s nothing controversial about the answer to this question. It’s straightforward. Hence the comparison to questioning stealing.
It’s not nearly as straightforward as you’re making it sound. I know of some women (and one man) whose rabbanim have permitted them to attend co-ed gyms for various reasons. “Lo Signov” is one of the Aseres HaDibros. “Do not attend a co-ed gym” is not. It’s a terrible comparison.
So to echo the words of flatbusher above, doviddb, ask your rav and not the coffee room.
Some would call people who go on the Internet rashaim.
potpie: And if you knew someone who got a heter to go mixed swimming (only place available for exercise and swimming lessons lol) or mixed dancing, would you then say, hey, it isn’t really such a clear issur – after all the aseres hadibros doesn’t say “Do not go mixed swimming”?! Everyone should ask their Rov about mixed swimming and dancing, no?
Lior, you’re combining two separate parts of my post. The first part was that it’s not so clear cut because people have gotten permission to do it. The second part was that stealing can’t be compared to co-ed gyms, regardless of whether or not it’s clear cut. And if someone were to post a question about mixed swimming or dancing, then yes, I would tell them to ask their Rav and not the CR. Regardless of our different perspectives, you must realize that the CR is not the place to ask shailos.
Without addressing anyone in particular, what IS the issur of taking necessary swimming lessons in a mixed swimming pool? I’d like to emphasize that I am not saying it is muttar. What I’d like is for people to offer sources in an organized way. Thank you.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37961&st=&pgnum=191&hilite=
And while I’m at it, might as well post the Shulchan Aruch on harchakos arayos:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14398&st=&pgnum=106
Why is there an assumption that frum men are always looking for arayos? There is a gemara in Kiddushin that says a young married couple should not live with the wife’s parents lest there be immoral behavior between the son-in-law and mother-in-law? Was that the norm of the time of the gemara to have illicit relationships with forbidden people?
Bava Basra 57b.
I don’t know that it’s necessarily “Assur”. I do know that, unless there’s no other choice, you’re called a Rasha for doing it. Maybe if the only gym in town that you can afford is mixed then it would be Muttar (if one was perfectly sure they could avoid looking at the women there). But it’s certainly not a good idea.
Flatbusher, are you doubting Chazal?
BTW, it’s not an assumption about frum men more than anyone else.
To all those makilim who consider everything assur to be a Sheilah, I have some news for you. The Torah says” Kedoshim Tiyhu”,Rashi says ” Hevei Perushim Min Harayois”. Follow Rashi, and stay away from a mixed Gym. If you consider it a Sheilah, then consider staying at work late on Friday, into Shabbos a Shailoh as well, because of Parnossoh. Be a jew to the fullest and be mevater. Not everything involves convenience. Otherwise, what kind of Sechar are you going to get in the next world?
Sam, it’s hard to not think that it’s much worse to be in a mixed gym than passing by women doing laundry.
Just look, for example, at the ??? ???? on ???? ???? ?????. It’s on the next page in ??”? from the one I linked above.
I’m trying to understand chazal. And as far as men go, speak for yourself. Sorry, but I don’t crazy every time I see any kind of woman, nor did I ever have any designs on my mother in law. If that’s your issue, well, I can understand the issur.
Why do you assume there is more arayos going on in a mixed gym than in an office where men and women work together? Unless you’ve been to one, how exactly do you know what goes onthere?
Git Meshige, you seem to lump everything together. Seems like you would be comfortable among radical Islam.
You are not trying to understand Chazal, there’s nothing particularly difficult about it. You are arguing with them.
And here we go again with the Taliban/Islam anology. Let me ask you: do you eat Halal? No? You’re even more fanatical than the Taliban!
We don’t take our cues from Islam; not l’chumra, not l’kula.
No, I am trying to understand why they would impose a restriction like that if it doesn’t apply unless there is an assumption that all men are predators. Could you explain it?
Some people only understand through argument, and that is why they often ask enemies for advice.
Arayos (and gezel) are ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ???, in other words, there’s a strong yetzer hara for them. It’s not intentional and it’s not evil, but it’s there, and we need to accept that and deal with it properly.
There is no shayla, Its clear cut assur, My dear brothers and sisters please if we want moshiach, which we so desperately need to come then please lets stand up for the sake of hashem and do the right thing. Especially in a time when its so hard to discern right from wrong but we all know in our hearts of hearts that Hashem does not want us to go to a mixed gym.
do you have a strong yetzer harah for both?
can I say no and then violate the entire ???? ?”??
why not open a gym that is open six days a week 3 days for women 3 days for men.
it’s a simple question, do you have a strong yetzer harah or not for arayos and gezeilah.
Mir talmid–if you want to do the right thing, you shouldn’t even be here since the Internet has been put off limits as well as you identify yourself as a mir talmid. So if you want to do your bid to bring moshiach, then you should be off the internet. Of all the things that are holding back moshiach, somehow mixed gym doesn’t come to mind among the biggest issues, or even an issue. How about sinas chinum, abuse, chilul Hashem by people who make news with their misdeeds, talking during davening? Folks like to make minor issues major because apparently they feel there is nothing else going on in the frum community that is holding back moshiach but for this. Yet I have never heard a lecture or even a psak about mixed gyms as a reason for moshiach not arriving except for someone who want to make it an issue.
I imagine they don’t mention it in lectures since they don’t expect you to be going.
What’s your views on mixed dancing?
And according the rabbonim I go according to, the internet is allowed in the right environment.
It’s an entirely irrelevant question. If I as an individual am either in the extreme minority and/or am not in the category of ???, it doesn’t change what Chazal say one iota.
And if you don’t believe Chazal, I’m not having this discussion.
This Chazal is not even a chiddush; if you think the world isn’t filled with gezel and arayos, you live in a different world, or reality, than I do.
mixed dancing in my opinion is Assur as shomer negiah comes into question if you have to dance with a partner.
if a you desperately want to find an excuse you will surely find one
The economics of a seperate gym probably just arent there
I do think its wrong to say a specific thing is preventing Moshaich from coming. Its one thing to say its assur and quite another to say its preventing Moshiach from coming
<en> mixed dancing in my opinion is Assur as shomer negiah comes into question if you have to dance with a partner.
There would no problem of Shomer Negiah if its with a spouse or Offspring
I was asking about mixed dancing as a rhetorical question.
Jew who cares–your rabbonim would say this coffee room is the right environment?
Daas yachid–I have no way of knowing how many people feel they are not overcome by desire for arayos or gezeila, but if the chazal were talking about the world in general, well, the non-Jewish world doesn’t subscribe to chazal anyway, so it must be that chazal felt Jews have those desires for imposing restrictions. Is that what you are saying?
I never said this specific Issue is preventing Moshiach, I said we have to do the right thing in general to hasten the Arrival of Moshiach and we all know good and well with regard to this issue, what the right thing is.
It would seem that a previous post of mine didn’t go through. I will try to rephrase. I’m discussing sources, primarily with DY, in a hypothetical way. As always, one must get halacha from an authorized source.
The gemara on bb57 isn’t that clear. Darka acharina is relative. Being that the world is round, there is always a different way to go. What I understand it to mean is that if there is an EQUIVALENT way, then one may presume that the MOTIVE is to look. One who goes somewhere with the intent to look is a Rasha.
The sh’a isn’t clear. lehisrachek is perhaps 50 feet, meod, 40, and meod meod, 30? No? What are the RULES, then?
The baer heiteiv would apply equally in all settings.
The gemara in gittin is discussing bathing, not swimming, and is discussing justifications for divorce, not how far men must stay away.
Mir, you are assuming you know what is right and wrong. When it comes to halachah there are often many shades of gray between the black and white when many factors are explained to a rav. The proper response to the initial post is to ask a rav, presenting it as it applies to the individual. There are many times in my personal life I was surprised at heterim that were given in various circumstances from well-recognized poskim. A psak for one person may not be the same for the next, so those who here have declared assur do not know the original poster’s specific situation that might provide a heter. Some people are so taken by their own knowledge they think they have the answers, and that’s why a forum like this could be dangerous as some may actually begin to listen to some of the views. One cannot say for certain something is not allowed until the entire matter and its ramifications are laid out. Some of you may think you know what the right thing is, but then again, you are not poskim to know what the right psak is.
Flatbusher,
If I may, I think you’re dead wrong. To go and lessen, mitigate, depreciate the seriousness of a sin to anyone is a major chilul HaShem. Plus the added benefit of lifnei eiver, too. No, I think it’s something you don’t wanna do. If someone has heteirim from his rav, his own circumstances, that’s his own private business. NOTHING TO TRUMPET ABOUT. Openly transgressing on something whole klal yisroel holds firm about, is nothing less than chilul HaShem b’farhesia. ????? ?????? ??, we’re looking to become more holy, not the reverse.
– my humble thoughts
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