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Aleph born to Jewish mother, mila by conservative rabbi and raised in conservatism. As adult wants to join frumkeit.
Bet born to goy mother, as adult mila by conservative rabbi and gerut by conservative rabbi/bet din. Later wants to join frumkeit.
Gerut l’chumrah for both?
Aleph does not need a Gerut, they are already jewish
Neither. The first doesn’t need (although needs hatafas dam bris), and the second needs (definite) geirus vaday.
Like said above, alef is a 100% born Jew just like you and beis is a 100% gentile.
Aleph born Jewish, Beis is not converted according to halacha, so needs geirut if he wants to be a frum Jew.
Aleph is certainly Jewish. Bet either needs a Geirus L’chumra or a real Geirus, depending on who the Conservative Rabbi was (it did exist that there were Frum Conservative people; now there might be none left but a few of the Rabbis from back in the day were).
There was no kabbalas ol mitzvos.
Conservative “rabbis” are heretics.
What Sam is saying is that there were frum people, non-heretics, who worked as “rabbis” in conservative synagogues (ostensibly to bring the congregants closer to Yiddishket), with the heter of Rav Soleveitchik.
The relatively few such people would have been wise enough to not purport to conduct a geirus, especially considering – as you said – that there was no true kabbalas ol mitzvos on the part of the purported convert.
I was talking with some people about this very topic- we were really discussing the Ethiopian Jews who came to Israel and underwent gerut lechumra, and we realized that we didn’t really know what the requirements were for someone to convert only lechumra and not lechatchila. Can someone please explain?
The Ethiopians, if any desired to become Jewish, would need a full blown conversion.
The Ethiopians, if any desired to become Jewish, would need a full blown conversion.
Not according to Rav Ovadiah Yosef, He paskind that they were kosher jews
That is not what happened, at least in the case I heard of.
Wow. So much to say here.
DY: As far as I know, R’ Soloveitchik gave no such Heter. R’ Schachter says he used to refer to a Rabbi who took a job in a Conservative Shul as a Mumar L’teiavon. Also, back in the day there would have been an actual Kaballas Ol Mitzvos by some. Not all, not many, but some.
Lior: The basic tenets of most of the Conservative movement were K’firah. There were people in JTS, however, who were clearly Frum, believing people. Most notably, for example, R’ Shaul Lieberman. He was undoubtedly Kosher and any Geirus under his auspices would be fine. The same is true of several of his Talmidim, who came through JTS totally Frum. They were rare, certainly, and by now are possibly nonexistent, but they did exist.
About Ethiopians: It is a massive Machlokes HaPoskim whether they are Jewish or need Geirus. In the end of the day, everyone seems to hold like R’ Ovadia that we treat them as full-fledged non-Jews until they convert. This isn’t because we don’t believe their history; rather, it’s because if we treated them as Jews (or even Safek Jews), the standard Psak would have to be that we would treat them all as Safek Mamzerim.
Well, one told me he got a heter.
What I’ve heard, though, is that Rav Soloveitchik made it conditional on there being a mechitzah within a few years. I suppose the ones who stayed on even after that, he might have referred to as mumar l’taiavon.
There may have been cases of genuine kabbalas ol mitzvos, but I’m answering the OP.
The Ethiopians were practicing a form of Christianity before they moved to Israel. And there’s no reason to believe that they hadn’t been intermarrying the local population in the hundreds of years before that.
The Ethiopians were practicing a form of Christianity before they moved to Israel. And there’s no reason to believe that they hadn’t been intermarrying the local population in the hundreds of years before that.
Not according to Rav Ovadiah Yosef whom is generally looked upon in their case as they would fall under more Sephardish than Ashkendzic.
Ethiopia is fairly close to Egypt where the Rav was born
I think some are mixing up The Beta Israel (The Falashas) whom are considered jewish according to many Posking including Rav Yosef and the Falash Mura who are from the same group, but whose ancestors converted (under duress) to christianity and do need to convert
Rav Ovadiah Yosef whom is generally looked upon in their case as they would fall under more Sephardish than Ashkendzic.
Why would they be sephardic?
Because they’re black?
You can’t be light and sephardic (Syrians)? You can’t be dark and ashkenazic?
Sephardim are usually thought of as either decdended from Jews of Spain or they are Jews from other places outside Europe Like Syria, Yemen or Iraq
That’s because those people are generally sephardic. But if, say, you found a community in a remote area of Iraq that had always only been in contact with Ashkenazic communities and had Ashkenazic customs, you’d certainly consider them Ashkenazic even if they were darker in color than most yekkes.
About Ethiopians: It is a massive Machlokes HaPoskim whether they are Jewish or need Geirus. In the end of the day, everyone seems to hold like R’ Ovadia that we treat them as full-fledged non-Jews until they convert. This isn’t because we don’t believe their history; rather, it’s because if we treated them as Jews (or even Safek Jews), the standard Psak would have to be that we would treat them all as Safek Mamzerim.
You can’t Pasken that someone is not jewish simply because of the ramifications that would occur if they were jewish. And regarding the Mamzer issue there is a Chazakah that a Mamzer whose status is unknown will not pollute the gene pool so there is a limit on how far back research is required.
Yemeite Jews are certainly not Sephardic and never were. And other Mizrachi Jews are, also, not all Sephardic. Before the Spanish Expulsion of 1492 there were communities of Jews living in the Mizrachi/MidEast countries. They were not Sephardim, though after the Sephardim leaving Spain moved there the communities integrated in large part.
1. In the original cases, the second one (Conservative conversion including milah), it might be a shailoh if it was valid? Would you use the person as a Shabbos goy or to buy your Hametz on Pesach? If the person is Shomer Mitzvah (as we understand it), it would be a shailoh.
2. Referring to Middle Eastern Jews (including Yemenites, Iranians, etc.) as “Sefardim” is a misnomer (just as referring to people who hate Jews as anti-semites is a misnomer). Their siddurim say “Sefardim v’Edot ha-Mizrach”, since the nusach of the Middle Eastern Jews (excluding those from Arabia) is closely related (study migration patterns to see why). Someone suggested using the term “Afro-Asian Jews” which is technically more correct but sounds too funky.
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Rav Yosef was techinally Iraqi (Eiduth HaMizrath) not Sephardic from Spain if you want to be techinical. But he is considered the Gadol HaDor for Sephardim and his son (as was he) is the Cheif Sephardic Rav of Israel
Yemeite Jews are certainly not Sephardic and never were. And other Mizrachi Jews are, also, not all Sephardic. Before the Spanish Expulsion of 1492 there were communities of Jews living in the Mizrachi/MidEast countries. They were not Sephardim, though after the Sephardim leaving Spain moved there the communities integrated in large part.
During the first emigration of Yemenite Jews, they had to choose whether to join the existing Ashkenazi or Sephardi communities and they had more in common with the Sephardi community.
Due to the Arab trade routes, the Jews in Iberia, North Africa, and Southwest Asia had enough contact to keep many of their practices in sync.
Chacham Ovadia Yosef was a real actual Sephardi. (All the Sefardim left Spain centuries ago.)
The Halacha was prior to World War 2 if you moved to a community you became part of that community and followed their customs. So if someone was born in Vilna and moved to Baghdad (and stayed) , they became an Iraqi jew even though they were born in Vilna.
After World War 2 , everything became mixed up and this no longer appled. However Rav Yosef was born in Baghdad prior to the emigration of most jews from Iraq so he was Iraqi even if his ancestors came from Spain
The minhagim of the Yemenites are quite different than those of the Sephardim (and the Ashkenazim). Their minhagim remained the most unchanged from the time before the churban bayis as they lived in a relative backwater and were left alone to a greater degree than almost any other Jewish community.
zd: According to your logic there are no more Sephardim in existence anymore since 1492 when they were kicked out of Spain (or converted to Catholicism) and thereafter they became part of the non-Sephardic communities where they move to.
ZD,
You keep quoting a psak from Chacham Yosef. Can you source that? Where is that psak?
Dash: Your quote “And regarding the Mamzer issue there is a Chazakah that a Mamzer whose status is unknown will not pollute the gene pool so there is a limit on how far back research is required.” was a Chiddush that I had that I thought was against the Rama. R’ Schachter said it’s not a Kasha on the Rama. These people’s status are all known-they’re Safek Mamzerim.
nisht: It’s in Yabia Omer, Chelek 6 or 7, I think.
Sam: How do you respond to Dash’s sentence immediately prior to the one you quoted? Namely, “You can’t Pasken that someone is not jewish simply because of the ramifications that would occur if they were jewish.”
Sam: How do you respond to Dash’s sentence immediately prior to the one you quoted? Namely, “You can’t Pasken that someone is not jewish simply because of the ramifications that would occur if they were jewish.
The Karities are more in this area, their Gittim have not be ruled correctly, but I think the Psak has been their Kiddusim have not been correct either so its ok to marry a Karite and they are Kosher jews
I am surprised that not one poster mentioned the origin of the psak that Ethiopians Jews are indeed jews. It came from the Radbaz- the main Possek of his time (about five hundred years ago) and predated the Bais Josef. He “paskened’ that they were descendants of Shevet Dan and R,Ovadia Yossef zz’l did indeed rule accordingly that Ethiopian jews are full jews.
As far as mamzeirus goes, there is no such thing as a “sofek mamzer”. One is either a “mamzer”(if it can be proven) or a jew. The gemoro clearly says “mamzer vadai omar rachmono velo mamzer soffek”.
How do you know these are the same people the Radbaz referred to? You don’t. Especially since in the 500 years since then these people (who today claim to be Jewish), prior to moving to Israel, had been practicing a form of Christianity and had been intermarrying the local population. So even if we assume that many of them were descendant from those people 500 years ago, in the subsequent centuries they have been intermarrying and practicing avoda zora.
rob: The 500 intervening years is a long time. Also, that’s one Shittah in the Tannaim. We don’t hold that way. We hold that Safek Mamzerim can (and do) exist.
Dash: That’s an excellent question. Obviously there were Halachic Tzdadim both ways. I don’t know whether that was an actual determining factor, but it is something that all the Poskim mention when they give the Psak that they’re not Jewish.
being a safeik mamzer probbably stinks, he can only marry a geyores (now that is a real shidduch problem)
So getting back to the OP–what was the question about person “Aleph”? Were we missing something?
pictursq and Sam2: Now, you are practicing in the arrogant supercilious way the way Ashkenazim treat all Sefardim. How do you know who your grandfather was? How do you know who your ancestor of five hundred years ago? This is the most arrogant way to treat other jews. Do you think R’Ovadioa Yossef was a fool when he accepted the Radbaz psak?
By us we know we’ve practiced Judaism generation after generation.
By them we know that a few short decades ago they were practicing Christianity. And Christians tend to marry Christians not Jews.
Pictrsq:you do realize that being X-ian or marrying a X-ian does not involves mamzeirus at all?Hence,it is a lot easier to accept them as Jews without a Psul.
Rabbiofberlin, with or without geirus?
The Ethiopians practiced their form of monotheistic “Judaism” in Ethiopia. I’ve never had a chance to see the tshuvos on the matter (it would be nice if someone would give a mar’eh makom or post a link), but based on their practices it seems the only way to consider them as being originally Jews is to deny Torah sheb’al peh. It seems much more likely that they were originally a Christian sect that kept a very Biblical religion. But they kept their religion with much mesirus nefesh and were hated by the local Christians, which makes it unlikely that there was much intermarriage between them.
The bigger issue that everyone is ignoring is that these are major halachic questions which should be answered by a posek who has all the facts, not in the YWN coffee room.
Rabbiofberlin, with or without geirus?
Again according to Rav Ovadiah Yosef without geirus
By them we know that a few short decades ago they were practicing Christianity. And Christians tend to marry Christians not Jews.
Are you saying Rav Yosef didnt know this?
DaasYochid:pictursq maintained that we should not accept the Ethiopians as Jews because some may have intermarried.My point was that ,if that was the case,there is no ultimate psul because intermarriage does not lead to mamzeirus.
ZD and ROB, if without geirus, then intermarriage certainly would be a p’sul.
rob: It’s a B’feirush Rama in regards to Karaites. They are all assumed to be Jewish. Therefore, they can accomplish Kiddushin. However, their Gittin aren’t Kosher. So any “divorce” leads to Mamzerus.
R’ Ovadia discusses the reliability of the Radbaz with the 500-year-gap and the reasons for and against. See his T’shuvah.
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