Anxiety, Bitachon, and Morons (Dah mah shetashiv l'moron)

anxiety in a sense is rational. most anxieties are rooted in real life occurrences, the irrational part is the association later on to other events.

Here is an extreme example
A man sees a child fall out of a second floor window, this event does not leave him and he is horrified by what he saw, now when he sees children even next to a closed or gated window he gets nervous. So the root event is logical it is now where he associates these other events that although safe and illogical bring out many of the same feelings.

In real life it usually is more complicated

So Popa The Great wrote ‘QED’ and he was right.

The Mesilas Yeshorim is in Perek 9. Well worth learning through properly. Here are some selected bits:

עוד ממפסידי הזריזות הוא רוב הפחד וגודל המורא מן הזמן ותולדותיו, כי פעם יירא מהקור או מהחום, ופעם מהפגעים, ופעם מן החלאים, ופעם מן הרוח, וכן כל כיוצא בזה. הוא הענין שאמר שלמה עליו השלום (משלי כו, יג) אמר עצל שחל בדרך ארי בין הרחובות. וכבר גינו חכמים זכרונם לברכה המדה הזאת ויחסוה אל החטאים, ומקרא מסייעם דכתיב (ישעיה לג, יד) פחדו בציון חטאים אחזה רעדה חנפים, עד שאמר אחד מן הגדולים אל תלמידו בראותו אותו מתפחד, חטאה את (ברכות ס, א). אלא על זה נאמר (תהלים לז, ג) בטח בה’ ועשה טוב שכן ארץ ורעה אמונה.
– what he is describing is clearly anxiety, and he finishes the paragraph by advising Bitochon to counter it.

“We all know that anxiety has nothing to do with bitachon or lack thereof… The same way if someone is anxious, it doesn’t help for them to put more locks on their doors (it even hurts usually). Because anxiety is irrational.”

I understand your analogy to anxiety despite extra locks. However I disagree with your argument.

Yes if Bitochon was supposed to be simply knowledge in your mind then your analogy and your argument would be correct. The flaw in your argument is that Bitochon is supposed to be something you feel in the deepest levels of your heart, like a child who feels safe with his father.

Anxiety is an emotion, so if your Bitochon is a logical thing only then yes it won’t counter anxiety. However deeply felt Bitochon which goes deeper than the feelings of anxiety will counter the anxiety.

Obviously this isn’t easy, and for many people perhaps psychologists have other ways of countering anxiety which are easier to practically succeed with. However to state that proper Bitochon isn’t an antidote to anxiety, is wrong.

How do I know all the above? I’m not making it up. [Actually PBA’s argument seemed very strong to me until I did chazoro of the relevant piece of Mesilas Yeshorim, which helped me to realise the above. Yet again we see the danger of talking from the boich about hashkofo inyonim. Whenever one comes up with an idea like this it has to be tested very carefully by going through the relevant sections of the classical mussar seforim].

The Mesilas Yeshorim is in Perek 9. Well worth learning through properly.

Gavriel +1

Aren’t there psychology methodologies that have to do with teaching people to view things rationally? And to internalize that so it changes the way you feel and act? Like CBT.

If one belief/emotion could just unseat another, depression and anxiety would cancel each other out. But they don’t.

RebYidd23,

I don’t understand the relevance to “depression and anxiety would cancel each other out. But they don’t”. Depression and anxiety are not opposing feelings that there should be any cancelling out going on. On the other hand, Bitochon is the way of cancelling out anxiety, as the Mesilas Yeshorim says. So I don’t understand your argument. Also, I’m unclear whether your intention is to argue with the Mesilas Yeshorim or to suggest I’ve misinterpreted it.

As for the “dinosaur living in your head” comment, I honestly haven’t a clue what you mean by this? If it was in response to what I wrote, would you mind to elaborate.

Anxiety and depression would cancel each other out because people who are depressed usually stop caring about the things they are or would be anxious about.

I think that bitachon may help some (I stress some) people with anxiety.
Anxiety can be irrational and bitachon can be rational (if properly understood) but being rational actually can help one deal with irrational thoughts. In CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy one looks to replace irational thoughts with rational thoughts. I could potentially see bitachon incorporated into this.
Now, you do what works and if it wouldn’t work then definitely don’t do it. And you can’t just say, have bitachon. When you use CBT you are taught how to use it, not just told, think rationally.

I know a social worker who uses bitachon to help her patients who are dealing with anxiety. I imagine this is very common amongst Frum therapists. I think it works something along the lines of what Yitzymotcha described.

And I agree with you, Yitzy, you should never tell someone to have bitachon. That is one of the stupidest things you can say to someone who is expressing concern about something. Someone just did that to me recently, and I think it had the effect of making me more nervous.

If someone understands what bitachon is, they would realize that telling someone to have bitachon can’t possibly help them to have bitachon. It is an internal process that can only come from the person himself and can’t be imposed from the outside.

OCD is both obsessive and compulsive.

yitzymotcha and big deal,

Thank you for bringing some psychological insight into the mechanism of anxiety.

I don’t have a background in psychology, but you are in effect asking a kashya on the Mesilas Yeshorim quoted above, and I would like to try to answer (unless you can explain to me that I’ve misunderstood the MY). Would be very interested to hear back from you.

Imagine a girl who was very nervous about being assaulted on the way to school, even on the main road in a safe area, where there is no rational reason to worry at all. As you say, her anxiety is a physical thing, possibly caused by chemical imbalances etc, and of course you can’t “talk yourself out of a fever”, so just thinking about bitochon won’t help, as you argued.

However this same girl has a different eitzo: that her father should walk with her to school. Her father is a tough big 6 foot fellow who has of course looked out for his daughter his whole life. She feels perfectly safe and secure in his presence and doesn’t feel at all anxious when he walks her.

Now I assume you’ll agree that as physical as anxiety can be, it nevertheless makes sense that even someone with these chemical imbalances would be able to stop worrying in such a scenario. And the reason is, this isn’t the same as trying to be rational and stopping worrying about whatever, where the ‘scary voice’ can politely disagree and get her worried again. This is different because the whole situation is different, its a situation where there is no place for her anxiety.

Well then, if we would really feel that we ARE always walking with our Father – if we would really really feel that way – there would similarly be no place for anxiety.

Obviously as I wrote earlier it is very hard for us to achieve such a level of bitochon, and the psychologists’ methods may be more achievable. I also think that bitochon is best learnt by example rather than from seforim, if everyone would have access to a role model in this area it would be easier to see how bitochon can counter anxiety, saying Tehillim a lot is I think a bit like having a role model, as it shows us how Dovid Hamelech applied bitochon in his life. However difficulty aside, as this is possible, the Mesilas Yeshorim is meyushav.

I think there is merit to what gavriel is saying.
Is anxiety purely neurological? I’m not an expert, just a simple fellow. The way I explain things to myself is that there is something called a biopsychosocial aproach to mental health. So there are 3 parts. Biology, psychology, and the social context. If anxiety was purely biological then all we could do is take medication. But most people with anxiety are open to medication if needed and psychology/therapy. Albert Ellis was a famous cognitive behavioral therapist who stopped using the word anxiety. He said people were anxietizing themself by the beliefs they were telling themselves. He was an atheist but he’d agree that if telling yourself you have a strong G-d walking next to you helps you then by all means do it.
I also don’t think OCD is the only way anxiety can manifest itself. How about, OMG, if I make a wrong turn while driving I’ll end up in a bad neighborhood and the people will mug me. Is that OCD?
What I don’t like about using G-d to allieviate anxiety is that what if the anxious person then starts asking, “yes, but who says G-d esists…” We just went from one doubt (maybe I’ll be harmed) to another doubt. So, if there are more effective ways of dealing with the anxiety I’d go with them. But if bitachon works, do what works.

Big deal

The reason the reassurance does not work many times is because it is a lie to this person, that is where the expectance comes in, understanding the danger the person was/is in danger allows the person to deal with reality, I think here is maybe the mistake of thinking that bitachon tells a person to deny reality and just say your safe even thought they are not.
Bitachon has many aspect to it.

Joe: Even if it’s the truth Reassurances don’t work. An anxious /OCD mind will always rationalize and rerationalize about why there is a real danger. Actually a person needs to realize that he’s not in control to take the first step toward healing. That’s not the same as telling someone they’re safe.

An anxious person doesn’t necessarily need to be in any danger to feel anxious. They perceive danger even though people who don’t suffer from the disorder will feel perfectly safe.

“Accepting the panic/fear without trying to suppress it is very therapeutic.”
I agree with this statement. Unfortunately, most people are shunned away from experiencing their emotions. They are told to “just get over it; it’s not a big deal.” Or, “You don’t have to be scared/worried/sad…” This is very wrong and is harmful. The more we suppress emotions, the more they will bother us. They may stop for some time, but they will eventually resurface. The way to go about dealing with emotions is to feel them and acknowledge that they exist. It may sound counter-intuitive, but if we can accept an emotion head-on and not suppress them, they WILL eventually go away and give great relief.
I’m not a mental health professional, but i have observed them and know others personally who struggle with disorders. With this said, it’s of equal importance not to make the sufferer feel like he/she is crazy. They know their thoughts aren’t logical and feel ashamed about it. They need validation and empathy. This is not easy to do especially if one is not knowledgeable about mental health, but it’s extremely important. There are many resources that can educate us about mental health. One resource is a new organization called Refuat Hanefesh. It’s important to get educated in this area as mental health challenges are real and need more attention.

Big deal, overwriting it is the only thing you can do. That is what acceptance does.

Have you ever overwritten anything?