Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Kablanus vs. shutfos
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September 8, 2014 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #613617DaMosheParticipant
I have a nightly phone chavrusah, and we’re learning Mishna Berurah, hilchos Shabbos. We ran into a difficulty understanding something, so I’m hoping some of the posters here might be able to help.
So it says that if you’re hiring someone b’kablanus to work your field on Shabbos, it’s assur because of ma’aras ayin, but m’ikar hadin, it’s muttar. If there’s no issue of ma’aras ayin, it’s allowed. The reason is that the worker, because he’s getting a percentage of whatever he gets from the field, is working for his own benefit, not yours.
Later, it says that if you have a partnership with a non-Jew, you need to make an arrangement for Shabbos when you first enter into the partnership. If you don’t, then you can’t have any benefit whatsoever from the work done.
Why is this any worse than kablanus? It would seem that the partner who isn’t Jewish would be no worse than someone who’s getting a percentage – why isn’t he like a worker getting a 50% stake? Isn’t he working for his own benefit just as much as yours?
September 8, 2014 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1031642DaMosheParticipantMaybe this isn’t controversial enough to warrant an answer?
September 8, 2014 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1031643usa-tralianParticipantI found these Simanim very, very difficult when I learned them – could you post which ?????? in Mechaber & MB you’re referring to?
September 8, 2014 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1031644zete605MemberThe problem with shutfus is the responsibility of the work is both on the Jew and non-Jew equally. Therefore half of the work that needs to be done on Shabbos sits on the Jew’s shoulders. When the non-Jew works for the full day Shabbos is a shliach of the Jew. Kablanus on the other hand, because of the payment arrangement, has the full responsibility of work on the non-Jew and therefore the only possible problem can be maris ayin.
September 8, 2014 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1031645☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantSpecific mareh m’komos would be helpful.
Off the top of my head, with kablanus, since he took responsibility for the job, which he can do at any time, his work is on his own time, so he’s considered to be working for himself.
Shutfos is considered as he is working for you as well, because you profit from the fact that he is working on Shabbos.
September 8, 2014 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1031646DaMosheParticipantzete605 and DY:
I think that in both cases the person doing the work is doing work for the Jew. However, in both cases, he’s also working for himself. DY, in the case of kablanus, it’s not talking about where it could have been done at any time. It’s talking about specifically on Shabbos. If it could have been done at any time, it works even with a straight salary.
With kablanus, it’s allowed because the worker is trying to work more so he’ll earn more. In a case of shutfus, even if half the work is on the Jew, the partner is still working harder because he will gain more.
September 9, 2014 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1031647☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant????? ??? ??”? ?’ ?”?
September 9, 2014 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1031648zete605MemberWho he does the work for is not the problem. Who has responsibility for doing the work is what’s important halachically. And when the Jew has the responsibility and the non-Jew does it he is a shliach (or looks like a shliach) and it’s assur. With kablanus the non-Jew has taken full responsibility of the work and therefore the only possible problem would be maris ayin.
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